Does boy lead create future adult lead units?

[Scoutfish]

Does boy lead create future adult lead units? Do adult led units die after those adults move on , since the boys have no clue.

 

Just a casual wondering here.

 

From the previous thread, it was summed up very nicely ( in my opinion) by Jblake47 about why adults ego's prevent them from letting go of the reigns of control.

 

And Sailingpj brings up what seems to be a time honored tradition of the younger crowd being disatisfied and well...entirely tired of the program.

 

Now, lets toss in another common topic: "What is wrong with scouting?" ...and it just seems so clear why things are not like they used to be.

 

So, in my own tidy weiw:

 

Kids joined scouting a long time ago, They learned all kinds of cool stuff. They were given the oppertunity to lead, as well as the oppertunity to screw up, and in the process - learn even bigger and more important lessons in how to do things and leadership. They became better leaders day by day, Working through challenges and overcoming obstacles...they evolved into leaders.

 

Soon, they were the leadership amongst the boys and doing a pretty good job. Matter of fact, they were doing a great job of boys taking control and leading and running things. Scouting was good.

 

 

But soon, these boys were no longer boys and were instead adults. They were no longer Patrol Leaders , SRL's or quartermasters. They were ASM's, SM's and Committee. They were no longer the boys who were leading. But they did not want to give up control. They and their ego's just knew without a doubt that they were doing it better and that the other boys would not...could not do it as good.

 

The boys couldn't handle the challenges, the obstacles and might be forever tarnished if they failed. So the adults slowly picked away at the boys responcibilities, creativity, and opertunities to run things and make decisions.

 

Now, maybe nobody noticed a connection, and maybe there really isn't one, but when, where and why did scouting become less appealing? When and where exactly did the program start to fail? When did it go from being "THE" youth organization to just "a" youth organization that needs much improvement?

 

Another bunch of questions:

 

Those who are members of and running the units that happen to be adult led....Was it always adult led or was it youth led. Were you those youth who led, and didn't let go, or were their other adults who led you.

 

If a scout is adult led and adults make all the decisions.....and one day these same youth become adults in a unit...will that unit have adults who do not understand how to lead?

 

Will those adults lead anyways?

 

Is that the problem now? Adult led youth of yesteryear never had experience of leadership, so they don't realize what they are doing now?

 

And if you don't let the youth lead and make decisions....where and when do you expect them to suddenly know what to do when they become adults?

 

 

Now, I do not even begin to pretend I have any answers to any of the above, but the thread this was spun from just makes me wonder.

[Stosh]

Excellent observation Scoutfish, and I have but only a couple of anecdotes to operate from.

 

I had a boy that was basically a bully, his dad was the SM. All the makings of a poorly run troop. His dad was frustrated and asked me to take over. The boy was furious when his support base for being a bully was taken away.

 

When all was said and done, the boy did a 180 and is now my ASM, his dad was the CC and is now a MC.

 

Well, the training and instruction does not end when the boy gets his Eagle and ages out! Now the training begins to show him how to be as successful with other boys as he was with me.

 

He no longer can bunk with his best buddy in the troop!

He no longer can lead any of the activities he once did in the troop/patrol.

He no longer can participate in the fun stuff the boys are doing.

 

He was really bummed out at first. However, after some long conversations he began to realize that what I enjoyed in scouting is far different than what he had been enjoying as a scout. He has once again done a major overhaul in his life. As an advocate of boy-led, he has seen what it has done for him and is now a #1 champion of making it happen for someone else.

 

His emphasis on patrol-method was seen by the camp director of the summer camp we attended the past few years and has offered him a spot on the staff. The camp also adjusted a lot of their program to emphasize the patrol-method in their camp program because of some of the conversations he had with them both as a youth and as a new adult. They sent him an application to be on their camp staff next summer and he has accepted.

 

Our OA in our District is in shambles and as a "youth" in the OA program, he is recruiting and reorganizing the OA program on his own. It's part of his Wood Badge ticket! Yes, he was an 18 year old WB participant and with a lot of reservations the council "allowed" him a spot in the training. He has told me these three years where he's an adult/youth (18-21) he has the opportunity to make the transition into being a better boy-led SM some day.

 

I don't know if he's going to get the opportunity with all on his plate to accomplish everything he wants to, but he's dead-set on giving it his best effort. He's planning on enlisting in the USAF next fall when he's out of high school and becoming a fighter pilot. I'm thinking he's going to do just fine!

 

Other boys haven't faired as well. The giving up the scouting youth experience didn't take hold of an adult vision of scouting and eventually dropped out of the scouter ranks.

 

To a certain extent, boys that Eagle early also fall victim to this process. Instead of being able to keep a foot on both camps, be a boy leader and take on adult responsibilities, they simply are overwhelmed and drop out, siting too busy at school kinds of things.

 

I have seen it in other boys from other troops where they have done well. My Jambo contingent SPL was an Eagle scout, hung out with the adults as much as he did with the boys helping them be successful, so it can be done in all troops, not just the one's I've been associated with. It depends a lot on the boys themselves.

 

Unlike the Webelos to Boy Scouting transition, the BSA does very little with the boy to adult transition. The camp where we go to summer camp did a nice job of helping out with my one boy. He is a year ahead in school and turned 18 half way through his junior year, January of 2010. He completed his Eagle the day before his 18th birthday. He then took the full SM training at summer camp and was kept busy while his buddies were off doing their MB's etc. That helped a lot. Then at the end of the summer he took WB. He's got his whole senior year now to work as my ASM and work in his troop. I'm hoping he can finish his ticket before going off to the Air Force Academy next fall.

 

He is an example of having the right attitude, and being in the right place at the right time. Not all boys -> adults have this opportunity.

 

However, I think BSA could do a lot more, maybe through the National Eagle Scout Association to develop a workable program for these young men. One hears a lot about Eagle Scout SM's but I often wonder how difficult it may have been for them to transition. Most of them dropped their association in scouting until they had kids of their own and then came up through the ranks like everyone else. I don't know, I don't think BSA has done much research on this process, but maybe they should.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

 

[Engineer61]

"And if you don't let the youth lead and make decisions....where and when do you expect them to suddenly know what to do when they become adults? "

 

They learn it just like every non-Scout does....in real-time...where decisions are real and the stakes are sometimes high.

 

I'm curious, is there a perception in the Scouting world that if you weren't a Scout you can't somehow lead and make decisions?

[Scoutfish]

"I'm curious, is there a perception in the Scouting world that if you weren't a Scout you can't somehow lead and make decisions?"

 

I hope not. I was never a Cub Scout nor a Boy Scout myself, and here I am a CubMaster.

 

Nah, I was wondering.....amd that's all...just wondering that if a unit is adult led - when those scouts themselves become leaders - are they also gonna be an adult lead

unit. Except maybe unlike their parents (who did happen to be former scouts), they never got to lead as youth.

 

 

[Stosh]

Engineer61, good point!

 

I think that given sufficient opportunity to succeed/fail, gain experience, etc. is equal for all people scouting or not. However, I do think that given a proper program the time-line is moved earlier in a boys left through scouting. If they can start the process at age 11 instead of 18, there might be a few more teachable moments for the boy.

 

An 11 year-old that screws something up in scouting has an opportunity to learn and make adjustments under the guidance of a concerned adult than the 18 year-old who's out on his own doing the best he can. Maybe by the time they both reach the age of 30 it will be a moot point, but I'm thinking learning early may make the 20 something years a wee bit more tolerable in the long run. A lot of things need to be decided during those early adulthood years, marriage, career, etc. that 2-4 years of experience couldn't be assisted better with 10-12 years experience in life's lessons.

 

I'm thinking that the parent that does a good job preparing their 18 year old will produce a great kid, but the SM that does a good job of preparing 50-100 kids might be able to accomplish just as much for each one of them as well. Not all parents will be successful, nor will all SM's. I'm just thinking that the odds of getting our kids ready can be enhanced quite a bit with the scouting program. If I didn't really believe that, I wouldn't have as many years in scouting as I do.

 

Scoutfish: To address your point, and I have no evidence to support my position, but I would think that an adult-led scout may indeed tend to be more often an adult-led SM simply because of the context in which he was a scout. On the other hand, if that same scout had a bad experience in an adult-led program, he may want to try being a boy-led SM so that others won't have to experience what he had to deal with as a youth. Could go either way, just depends on the individual. I'm a bit of the second option in that my scouting experience was not as beneficial has hopefully I'm providing for youth today.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[drmbear]

When I ran Troop Leader Training courses, as the Senior Patrol Leader, we modeled the ideal of the patrol method and what it means to be boy lead. The amazing thing, as an adult, I essentially get to be the crazy person I got to be as SPL back then as a Cubmaster. At the same time, I completely understand and am looking forward to being an adult in Boy Scouts, though I'm glad I get to do this for a few years. I'm already working with some of the Webelos parents and leaders to start transitioning their boys to handling that transition where we aren't doing everything. In great troops, there really should be no fluctuating away from by lead, and I've seen it in troops over many, many years. If you are seeing fluctuation, make it your legacy that everyone knows what to expect - this program works the best when it sticks with what was laid out at the beginning, that the boys find their way, in patrols.

[Eagle92]

A few comments.

 

Does boy lead create future adult lead units? Do adult led units die after those adults move on , since the boys have no clue.

 

If by this question you mean that once a youth leader becomes ASM, does he still do what he's done when he was ASPL, SPL, Etc?

 

In my expereince it is possible. I know that when I was first an ASM and was the "acting SM" at summer camp as the over 21yo was a parent, I was bad and did way too much. Luckily the SM did come in the middle of the week, talked to folks and had a cup of coffee with me. Great learning expereince and set me on the right track. Biggest thing was I was friends with some of the older scouts, and considered a mentor by all. Me sliding back into SPL mode instead of being in ASM mode did raise some questions, but the youth thought I knew best and really did not argue with me. Why i love having an expereinced ASM or SM mentor new ASMs from the ranks.

 

Now in refernce to Adult lead troop dying off when the main adult leaves, it depends. I know of one troop that had an intense SM, very adult lead. In fact some folks looked at that troop as a model b/c they won all the camp awards at summer camp and camporees. However their SM told them what to do at summer camp, and coached them heavily at their troop meetings and campouts in preparationfor district and council camporees when held. I admit there was some resentment in my troop about this, but when that adult left, the troop fell apart because it was adult lead, and it was essentially a one man show.

 

In contrast my troop was youth led. When my SM left after 25 years, the new SM who mentored under the old SM for a year, basically made no impact as the youth kept doing what they always did. Now some of our emphasis changed a bit, we did a lot more canoeing and water activities as that was the New SM's interest, he was a Quartermaster after all, but essentially is was business as usual.

 

Now I do know of one very large troop that was adult led, and had no problems when a new SM appeared. But they also had a very large base of ASMs to take over.