Changing Patrols

[Platypus96]

Currently I am in what my troop refers to as the older boy patrol. It consists of me,a 16 year old life scout and my 14 year old patrol leader. We want to make it a mixed age patrol by taking two new scouts who are actually interested in real boy scouting, so they can learn things the right way. Can we take scouts from a differant patrol? If so, is there a rule I can show my SM to make him believe me?

[Eagle92]

Have you and your PL told your SM you want them in your patrol? Nothign in writing to my knowledge prevents that from happening. but a few things.

 

1) Are there any otehr members and if so what do they think?

2) What does your PL think?

3) What does yoru SPL think?

4) What do the 2 new scouts think?

 

Soudns like an adult run troop. If that's the case, get everyone mentioned aproval, and have your PL and SPL talk to the SM.

 

Now I am playing Devil's Advocate.

 

1) Why do you want the new guys in your patrol? please tell me it's not to make them serfs as has been mentioned in other threads.

 

2) You do realize that it will be more work for you, the PL, and the rest of your patrol as you will need to teach them the basic scout skills, work with them to master those skills, and get them up to par withe the rest of the patrol?

 

3) If your patrol is highly competitive, you do realize that you may be at a disadvantage at camporee competitions?

 

4) It may limit some of the independence of your patrol becasue you will need to look out for the new guys, esp in an adult run troop?

 

Ok I played Devil's Advocate, and I will now my $.02 worth if you are willing to work with them, teach them the basic scout skills, and mentor them so that they too get a sense of giving back to the younger scouts:

 

GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am shouting by jingo!)

 

Good luck!

[Eagledad]

>>We want to make it a mixed age patrol by taking two new scouts who are actually interested in real boy scouting, so they can learn things the right way. Can we take scouts from a differant patrol? If so, is there a rule I can show my SM to make him believe me?

[moosetracker]

Because I have been following your past threads, Platypus I know your intentions are good, but as Eagledat states you have had past issues with your SM, that you are trying to redefine your attitude to be more positive.. Still a little there with the "trying to prove".. How are things going otherwise with your attempts to improve your troop to be more Boy Lead. Makeing any headway at all, or are you just pulling those scouts that are salvagable and letting the rest of the sinking ship sink?

 

The makeup of the Patrols are really self-defined troop to troop.. In a boy led troop, the boys get to define the makeup.. In an adult lead troop, the adults may define the makeup (hopefully after at least listening and taking the boys viewpoints into account.)

 

Since your troop is very adult lead, I would imagine the makeup of the patrols was defined by the Adults, maybe with little input from the boys who were members at the time.

 

Because it is self-defined, no reason why it can not be changed when there is good reason to do so.. Like others state, the arguement for the change from your end should be one where you see this as a positive affect on the troop as a whole, and not one that is self serving for a few (such as salvaging the good ones and letting the rest sink..)..

 

Maybe one arguement can be to train the few that are willing to learn scouting the right way, so that you can then move the ideas out to the others by example, or new incoming scouts (the more scouts you have doing scouting the right way, the more influence you can have leading by example.) Also that you are getting older and aging out. If you can teach younger scouts the correct scouting methods, then after you leave they can carry on the torch..

[Stosh]

Platypus96,

 

Taking into consideration your concerns of other issues in your troop, here's my suggestions and criteria for making them.

 

It sounds like you have an adult-led program. No problem you can still work within it. Bigger challenge, and maybe bigger reward.

 

You have only three boys in your patrol. Most literature suggests 6-8 boys in a patrol so you are too small to be effective.

 

Now, you can do a couple of things.

 

1) You can cherry pick all the good scouts out of all the other patrols to become Real Boy Scouts, but I'm thinking your SM won't be interested in leaving leadership voids in all the other patrols. I'm thinking that's not going to fly.

 

2) You can take on a group of newbies to bring them up to the standards of real Boy Scouts you have identified. Nice challenge, but your patrol might have problems with age limits on some activities. Patrol method expects the all-for-one, one-for-all attitude and as older boys you may have to forgo some activities to show solidarity of your patrol buddies. If you take on relatively younger boys, 14-15 FC/Star scouts, that's different, the ages won't hold you back on the big activities.

 

3) My suggestion would be: You can also merge into another existing patrol. With only three of you, explain to the SM that there's always a buddy problem with three boys and by merging with another patrol of 5 you have your quorum of scouts for a full patrol. Have YOUR PL step down, take another POR if he needs one. Take on their name and yell, and "lead" from the backseat, as I tell my boys. Help, guide, mentor the PL/APL team to become Real Boy Scouts. Make suggestions, have fun. If you're the older boys, relative to those of that patrol, they will look up to you and naturally consider your suggestions on improvement. Be careful not to take over, help the PL/APL be the leadership team! Be there to show them that getting water, cleaning up, sweeping out the latrine, etc. is really the best part and most fun of the activity. The three of you always be the first to volunteer for the worst jobs (you're going to get stuck with it anyway, might as well have some fun with it). They'll all know it's a joke, but by all laughing together you'll get the job done. Eventually, each of you grabs a different patrol member, announce that he's your new latrine cleaning buddy and the two of you are best there is and no one dare challenge you. Then each of you others grab a new buddy and make a game out of the "argument" of which team is better!. Teach the others that if they want to get in on the fun, they had better roll up their sleeves and participate. Make everything a game that's fun, but always teaches something along the way. The name of the game is to be effective as a patrol and have fun. No SM, even if he's running an adult-led program is going to yell at scouts for getting the work done and having too much fun in the process. By putting together a patrol of effective scouts, not only will you be setting the example of excellence in your patrol, your patrol will eventually set the example of excellence in the troop.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Kudu]

What some Scouts do in your situation is recruit into their Patrol, sixth-graders from their neighborhood, school, church, or the younger brothers of their friends.

 

It is difficult for most Scoutmasters to object to that!

 

Remember that the insurance policies of most Councils allow boys of Scouting age to come on a campout (rather than a boring indoor meeting) before they register, just to see if they like it. If you are already camping your Patrol 150 feet away from the others, then outdoor boys are likely to be impressed with the adventure.

 

Stick to your guns about "Real Scouting" because the boys you are most likely to recruit are those who either hated Cub Scouts, or never joined.

 

Here are some of the things I say to sell Scouting to sixth-graders:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

Yours at 300 Feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

[Platypus96]

Looking back on my original post, I realize that it does sound a little negative. I posted directly after speaking to my SM about this, and his response did upset me a little, which may b e a reason why.

 

My patrol did have three members, but one has since left it because he did not agree with us on some points. These points included cooking, cleaning, and generally pulling ones weight on a camping trip. He is happy now in a patrol that does not expect much from him.

 

My patrol leader is with me on this one. As of now, he is not really getting much leadership expeiriance, as pretty much every decsision is collaborative between the two of us. This is his first time as a patrol leader, and he would like to get some practise leading younger scouts.

 

The two scouts that I wanted to join our patrol are unhappy in the patrol they are in. Most of the other scouts in that patrol don't really like camping, and don't much like to do work on campouts. They both just turned twelve, one is first class and the other is scout. The first class scout transfered to our troop from another, which he joined when he was ten, and the scout is in his second year. Adancement has been rather stagnant in the patrol he is in.

 

The SPL alos thinks they should be in my patrol. unfortunately, the SM is unlikely to agree with him on anything, but that is a differant discussion.

 

As far as making sacrifices in order to have two new scouts, I am more than willing. i have been a troop guide twice, and have seen that new scout patrols do not work. I hope that having a more even mixture of new and old scouts will make it work better.

 

If it seems like I am trying to salvage ood scouts from this "sinking ship", then that is probably true. But I don't think that these scouts who want to be here should suffer because thy are in a bad patrol.

 

When I talked to the SM about this, he said no, becasue it is against BSA policy. i wanted to know if he was correct, or if he just didn't want me to do it. Sometimes it is hard to tell with him.

[clemlaw]

Take my $0.02 for what it's worth. I was a Scout about a hundred years ago, and I'm currently a Tiger Den Leader. But sometimes the outsider might be able to shed some light on something.

 

I suspect that your SM is wrong, and there is no policy which prohibits doing what you want to do. But it's probably not important to prove him wrong!

 

It sounds like you currently have a patrol of 2, which as you realize isn't much of a patrol after all. But it gives the two of you the advantage of having a lot of independence.

 

I can point to an official BSA policy that a Scout is Helpful, so there's nothing stopping you from being Helpful. Since there are only two of you, you may as well just pick out a Patrol that needs help, and help them. Pick out the Patrol you want to help, and then just ask them, "since there are only two of us, can we camp with you this time?"

 

I can't imagine why they would say no. So for all intents and purposes, your patrols have merged. As another poster said, in different words, I would volunteer for as many "irksome tasks" as you can, and also make sure the members of the younger patrol are successful with their "weighty responsibilities".

 

IMHO, this is the best way to lead those two scouts "who are actually interested in boy scouting." And if you don't watch out, I bet you'll also get a few of the other ones hooked.

[Beavah]

When I talked to the SM about this, he said no, becasue it is against BSA policy.

 

LOL. Yah, good for you being a skeptic, Platypus96.

 

You'll find that adults use the "against policy" argument almost exclusively when what we are sayin' is manifestly stupid. If somethin' really is a bad idea or has downsides that should be considered, it's easy to talk about those without resortin' to "policy."

 

In answer to your specific question, no, there is no BSA policy that prohibits what you are talkin' about. Mixed age patrols are a common enough practice, and they were the most common practice for 90 years of Boy Scouting until the introduction of NSPs in 1990. Since then, da BSA has backed away from the NSP/same age patrol notion a bit.

 

Kids switchin' patrols is also a fairly common thing in many troops. Not regularly, mind, but occasionally here or there. What would be very uncommon is leaving a patrol of only 2 scouts on its own. That's too small by most recommendations, which put the "ideal" patrol size at at least 8 scouts, and certainly no less than 4. National Honor Patrol Award requires 8 patrol members (or an increase).

 

Now, all that havin' been said, Eagledad is right, eh? If you're goin' to succeed when dealing with a senior partner like a SM, your first, best choice is always to work with him, eh? Not challenge him.

 

The point isn't to be right, eh? The point is to succeed.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle92]

good advice all around.

 

Maybe have all of you apporach the SM at the same time, and politely ask if you can form a new patrol since two people are an inadequate size for a patrol. You can point out some literature about the national honor patrol award, aka BP Patrol Star and recommending an 8 man patrol or growingand that by giving you these 2 scouts you will be meeting this goal.

 

On a different note, how long has your SM been in that position and has he been trained? Somehting doesn't soudn right.

[Stosh]

To me this is the #1 problem with adult-led, troop-method programs. Any initiative, adventure, etc. the boys want to try out and squashed by some adult along the way. Eventually after the boys beat their heads against the wall long enough they either 1) quit out-right or 2) focus solely on their Eagle and then quit.

 

In a boy-led, patrol-method, the boys should be deciding on who's in what patrol and what emphasis that patrol wants to take. I don't think that's going to happen for you anytime soon.

 

My boys would never ask me to redefine patrols, who's going to be in a patrol, or anything else that is the patrol's responsibility to decide.

 

Unless it's an issue of safety, looking and acting like a scout or having fun, no adult is allowed to interfere. Looks like you boys are not having fun, breaking the rules in my troop. My advice to you: Fix it. Unfortunately that's not the advice you're going to get from your SM.

 

So, then, you feel like you're overwhelmed? not going to accomplish what you want to in scouts? Let me guess, it has nothing to do with girls, cars or sports, right?

 

There is a rule in scouting that scouting should be fun. You need to let your SM know he's not following the program because you and your buddies are not having fun. Put together a reasonable proposal that indicates that as long as the boys are safe, doing scouting stuff, and having fun you'd like to give it a try. If not, you need to find a troop with a SM that agrees to that because that's what scouting is all about.

 

Boy-led? Yesterday I got a call from my QM scout, he organized a group of boys to head out to do some shoveling, a blizzard was on it's way. They made $40 for their efforts and figure to buy two new stoves with it. They finished up in time to get to a late afternoon Webelos den meeting and assist their adults with instruction on the Readyman pin. That was organized by the OA Rep boy. Tonight is the regular meeting. As SM, I'm afraid if I tried to stand in the way of my boys, I'd get run over!

 

Your mileage may vary

 

Stosh