Getting Youth Leaders to Step up

[Mrw1]

We had a SM who would answer such questions with, "I like my coffee black." This let the guys know they were asking things that they needed to take care of.

 

I also know a teacher who often tells her students, "That is a problem YOU can solve." That seems to be a good way of empowering the kids to do what they can before asking for help with the harder stuff.

[Eagledad]

OK, I can see how this can become a confusing discussion.

 

>> Your "Hondo" approach is pure leadership, literally sink or swim! If you don't know, you had better figure it out and figure it out quickly! These are leadership skills!

 

I always use the Hondo approach first and if it doesn't work out in the best interest of the boy, I will supplement it with a wee bit of guiding suggestions, but I do every little with the management methods, including EDGE.> I'm a firm believer that most boys fail because they weren't ready/prepared in the first place.

 

Boys will step up naturally if they feel themselves prepared and knowledgeable.

[Stosh]

Cherry picking statements out of context will always lead to confusion.

 

"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." - Matthew 27.5

 

Jesus told him, Go and do likewise. - Luke 10:37

 

So Jesus told him, What you are about to do, do quickly. - John 13:27

 

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

Seattle:

 

Yes, you have it correct. All FC+ scouts should have sufficient training to be able to do anything they want. If not, then there is something wrong with the training process of T-FC. Too often, just checking off boxes, isn't enough. Too many of us are intent on getting the boy through the requirements we pass them off once they have tied the knot once. Like anything in the real world that skill has to be done over and over again in the meeting, at night, in the rain, and then maybe they will be able to do it for the rest of their life. Instead of teaching the boy (EDGE) and then when one gets out into the woods, at night, in the rain, just to have the adults step in and "help", they let the boys struggle through (Hondo) with the situation.

 

A boy that has passed his swim test at the local pool and now gets to camp where there's a big lake that terrifies him, yes, toss him in and expect him to do his swim test. Water in the lake is not going to hold him back just because there is more of it. I would hate to have that pool-boy take a pass on a Sea Base trip just because there's more water in the ocean than in the pool.

 

If one can tie a double half-hitch around the chair leg at the meeting, he should be able to tie that same knot in the dark, in the rain, in the woods. If a boy can do that, he doesn't have self-esteem, he has self-confidence and no adult need interfere with that process.

 

Now, if an older boy wants to step up and help out a 2C boy in the dark, in the rain, in the woods, then you have leadership! No older boy is going to step up and take the reins if he himself cannot do the task himself. Training makes a good scout (EDGE), experience makes a good leader (Hondo).

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

 

(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Eagledad]

No Cherry Picking, I just didn't want to include the full text of both post.

 

I read all your stuff again and I'm still unclear what Hondo has to do with EDGE and how that encourges youth leaders to step up. Isn't Hondo representative of no training. Or are you saying we should teach the scout to swim then throw him in to see if he sinks? Isn't that kind of a pseudo Hondo/EDGE approach?

 

Barry

[Stosh]

The original discussion was on fear of the water. There are boys that spend all their time in the pool and are phobic of open water. To toss a kid into any deep water knowing he'll sink like a rock is as effective as tossing him off a cliff without a parachute. I kinda thought the comparison was rather obvious.

 

To approach any and all situations with the same basic premise of train and then quit is not effective in developing leadership and a well trained boy will not take on leadership just because he's qualified. The extra step, push, or whatever, challenges the boy to go beyond the basics and apply what he has learned. Simply following directions, performing at a trained level, isn't always enough to get the youth "leader" to step up. He has to take what he has learned, over come the fear/lack of confidence, or whatever it is that is holding him back and take the next step. SPL1Warwick was asking what it was that got the boy to that next step. One can't do that with just more EDGE training. He has to be challenged and hung out to dry a bit to prove to him he's capable to taking it to the next level. A boy can be over qualified to be an SPL, but if he lacks self-confidence or fear of failure he'll never move up. One can EDGE him to death, but until a healthy shove, opportunity, or expectation is placed in front of him (Hondo) it will never happen for him. A boy can learn all there is to backpacking, but until he's looking at 12 days at Philmont, he will never to prove to himself he can really do it. Challenges, expectations, and opportunities are what makes a boy a leader, not more EDGE training. A boy can be a master at knots, but until he can get a dining fly up that will take on a bit of wind and rain, he'll never be able to lead a group of boys on an outing. He can master all there is to first aid, but if he is afraid he's going to hurt someone trying to put a split on a broken leg, he'll never be trustworthy in the field or in an emergency situation. He may have earned the life-saving MB, but can he save a life if the situation arises? It would be a real shame to have earned the first aid MB and the ASM goes down with a heart attack and he runs around looking for another adult to do the CPR.

 

The Hondo approach of inducing a bit of controlled fear for the boy is what will allow him the opportunity to someday be a real leader.

 

I was never trained to drag a person out of a burning car. It's not in any training manual or first aid course that I'm aware of. But having a sharp scout knife in my pocket, knowing how to use it, how to move an injured person and being aware of the danger, allowed a young boy to live out the rest of his life. Was it a smart thing to do... probably not. But standing there waiting for the fire department and watching him burn to death, wasn't an option for me that I even considered.

 

A SM induced Hondo experience is somewhat, but not totally a risky situation. The boy might fail, he might be embarrassed, he might give up too soon, he might, might, might. But if one practices getting over their fear of whatever it is that is holding him back, he will be a great leader in the long run. 90% of getting youth leaders to step up at anything is overcoming fear. I know of no great leader that doesn't have a more than healthy capacity of self-confidence, and that's not something that can be taught with the EDGE method.

 

A boy doesn't need to fail in this process. He can build self-confidence with a whole series of tests that he may think he's failing but he's not. I was on a white-water canoe outing with a new scout in the front of my canoe, mostly for ballast, holding down the front. The very first rapids he panicked and didn't paddle, I couldn't make the turn and we rolled. He came up sputtering, mad as a hornet and crying... He was not impressed with me one bit. He wanted to "go home". He accused me of trying to drown him. I told him he's standing in waist deep water with a life jacket on, get over it. I then told him to grab the other end of canoe and help me get the water out, we have about a dozen more rapids to go and the canoe floats better when doesn't have any water in it. Fear? Lots of it. I probably scarred him for life, but to this day he still loves to white-water canoe and goes every year. Great kid, I expect him to be starting his Eagle project any day now. For all I know he probably still hates my guts.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[dkurtenbach]

EDGE (Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable) and Hondo (a reference to the movie "Hondo" in which John Wayne's title character, on learning that a boy can't swim, promptly tosses him into water over his head) are two different, even opposing, approaches to teaching a boy _how_ to carry out a task.

 

The problem posed in the title of this thread is about motivation. As the old Boy Scout Roundtable training used to say, Roundtable was about giving troop leaders "the WILL to do and the SKILL to do." So, how do EDGE and Hondo affect the WILL to do while providing Scouts with the SKILL to do?

 

I read Stosh's original point as being that the EDGE philosophy tends to sap a boy's initiative. I think Stosh stated it quite eloquently:

 

"As long as adults treat their boys like children that can't figure things out for themselves, they will stay that way. Why learn when some adult is going to teach you. Why problem solve anything, some adult is going to tell you what to do eventually. Why take initiative on any priorities, the adults will tell you what you need to do next. Don't worry about screwing up, some adult will have a backup plan anyway and they'll take over. If adults keep doing these kinds of things there boys will NEVER step up and take over!"

 

The obvious problems with the Hondo approach are that, on one extreme, sometimes the kid will just sink if you toss him in over his head, and on the other extreme, sometimes the kid will quickly learn to swim, but may swim right into danger because he hasn't been trained.

 

The trick, I think, is finding a way to assess each boy before immediately starting in on training (EDGE) or simply tossing him in (Hondo).(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)