Patrol Outings

[ScoutNut]

>>"Our council always did have a policy that you need the tour permit unless meeting at your normal weekly meeting place, or within the city/town of you meeting area.">"Our COR insisted that we put in a tour permit for any in-town event that was not at the normal meeting place, or normal meeting time.. Why? Because she did not believe the Insurance was covered if we did not do the Tour Permit every time we met as a scouting unit when not in our weekly scheduled meeting.">"Council tried to tell us we did not need it for in-town events, but when stating our COR required it and why, they never stated the Tour Permit was not for the purpose of insurance. They just would then process the paper work."

[moosetracker]

Oh I know if COR want to make rules to be more restrictive (not less) they can do so.. But, you would think that if it was based on an incorrect reason.. The fact that they feared we may not be covered under BSA insurance without a tour permit.. Someone may have corrected that, when we on numerous occasion stated why our COR had made a stricter policy.

[Eagledad]

90 percent of the units in our council believe tour permits are required for insurance because that is how it is taught in training. I don't know if that is on purpose or just the assumption that doesn't get corrected, but I learned it correctly on a forum like this one.

 

Barry

[moosetracker]

I think stating it for insurance does give it teeth.. With out that it is sort of like why bother? What's the point?

 

Planning?? Forget it, at least for my troop, I already said scouts are not asked to figure out what if they are going on an event until the night before since the SM feels it is too hard for them to plan in advance.

 

On top of that, few give my son their car & license info including the SM, so he just plugs in those names he has until the seat belt issue is set regardless of if those people are going or not, or he state the parents are driving their own child when that is incorrect also.

 

Planning?? What is that?.. Don't you need a SM that will instill in the Scouts the value of planning, rather than a poor outdoor coordinator, who is trying to get a tour permit approved..

 

You would think that if our COR was so worried about this Tour Permit for insurance purposes, they would require the Adults & the scouts to do enough planning early enough for it. But, when brought up at a committee meeting they did not want the hassel, and just wanted the tour permit done on all events in-town & out for insurance, but it didn't matter if the information on it was correct or not..

 

Since pre-planning to get correct info is not anything they worry about, tell them it is not needed for insurance, and then the question is what is the point of the whole thing. Might as well not bother to file one.

[Eagledad]

//)Since pre-planning to get correct info is not anything they worry about, tell them it is not needed for insurance, and then the question is what is the point of the whole thing.//

 

It is procedure and the right thing to do. The boys need to learn to follow rules even if the rule doesn't make sense. Our PLC fills out all our tour permits.

 

Barry

[ScoutNut]

>>"But, you would think that if it was based on an incorrect reason.. The fact that they feared we may not be covered under BSA insurance without a tour permit.. Someone may have corrected that, when we on numerous occasion stated why our COR had made a stricter policy.">"Problem is that our SM insists the scouts can not possibly know if they can go on an event until the Troop meeting before the event. So my son only can do a tour permit at the earliest around 10pm on the Thursday night when the event will start either that Friday night or Saturday morning"

[moosetracker]

He knows where they are going, but not who the leaders for the trip will be until Thursday night.

 

Yeah he did make a big stink with this last go round. Using the insurance angle, everyone that my troop thinks is the reason behind it, he was trying to pressure them into the fact that only those that are on the tour permit should be allowed to drive the scouts for the accuracy of the insurance, and that means they don't have enough rides because the only car he has is his and his fathers. Everyone else either never gave him their info or has since changed cars and never updated their data.. He has gone to committee meetings, sent out emails, and has asked in the meetings. The problem is that the person who refuses to give a health form or car info is the SM.. Just out right refuses.. Everyone else follows his lead. If he doesn't have to, then they don't either. The SM should be setting the example of following rules. Instead he just makes it impossible for my son to do his job.

 

I believe also the last event the SM was out the week before the event, so my husband and son got the confirmation of Leaders & scouts so he had a week and a day for the tour permit. A week before this the SM was at the committee meeting insisting it is unfair to try to get anyone to commit to anything more then an day before the outing. But while he was out they did it and proved him wrong.

 

The committee just brushes over the problem by telling my son to just make it up, easier then getting the SM to do what he should.

 

My husband and son & his fiancee are the only ones with the hazardous weather, safe swim, safe boat, etc.. No one renewed YPT until new policy forced them to. An event can not happen without one of them on the tour permit.

 

Lady at council is wonderful to our family, but yes.. There have been times when Tour permit got sent but no approval was made, 85% of the time he does get the approval on time.. I will give you 3 guesses as to who will make the biggest stink about my son not get the tour permit approved in time..

 

I told my son about the fact this the Tour permit is not for insurance, he is not sure if it will help or hurt. On the one hand, he can now argue again why it is unnecessary for in town trips, on the other he looses the fight to get the car info in order to have it accurate for insurance purposes.

 

I told him to double check with the lady who does the Tour permits at our council, because if he says something they will most like go to her for confirmation.. Then tell the SM & committee if the whole purpose of it is to plan, not for insurance, it is worthless to do unless accurate planning is done. So until they enforce the policy so that he can do an accurate tour permit in a timely manner by planning the events, they might as well not bother with it.

[thriftyscout]

After all the conflicting answers, I can see that this is going to require a conversation with the DE to see where our local Council stands on Patrol "activities" and what they are willing to condone.

 

Thank you for all the ideas about how to go about it.

[Beavah]

Yah, sorry thriftyscout. Your thread seems to have been hijacked by the Great Insurance Monster. My fault.

 

Your average DE won't know that much about patrol outings, eh? Remember, the job of a DE is really not to support program, or even know all da different program features. Do yeh need to ask your DE if the boys can do parkour? Would he even know what it is?

 

Try askin' your unit commissioner or a district commish.

 

So, do you know where the proof the tour permit is NOT for insurance purposes is in writing?

 

Moose, yeh have that backwards, eh? Do you know where the proof is that NOT wearing a red bow tie is required for your auto insurance to apply? In writing?

 

Of course such "proof" doesn't exist. But everyone knows that's not how insurance works.

 

An internal document, like a tour permit, does not have any direct bearing on an external contract, like an insurance contract.

 

I think stating it for insurance does give it teeth.. With out that it is sort of like why bother?

 

Yah, I think that's why all these silly insurance rumors get started, eh? Some trainer or some other fellow wants to sound authoritative and give what he says "teeth" so he makes up some blather about insurance. Yeh have to wear uniforms or the insurance won't apply. Yeh have to follow G2SS or you'll be eaten by a carniverous lawyer. Yeh have to file a Tour Permit or you will wake the Mummy (No! You must not read from the Book of the Dead!).

 

It's just dishonest. It's not in the training curriculum, and it causes all this confusion and worry and bad relationships with IH's and CORs like moosetracker reports.

 

The primary reason for a tour permit is that it helps yeh check to make sure folks have the right training, that you've got drivers in place and all the rest. Just the sort of checklist you should be runnin' normally for any outing, so why not use da BSA's form?

 

The secondary reason for tour permits is that in an on-the-ball council they can use 'em to collect data on what the units are doin' and that can help provide support or information. Maybe even catch a few problems up front like a cub pack deciding on a family whitewater weekend or da crew that wants to explore abandoned mines.

 

It's not expected that you're goin' to get the numbers right. Nobody ever gets the numbers right. Your son can just put down a best guess a week out and it will be fine. Point is really to make sure yeh have adequate supervision, eh? Enough (properly trained) adults for the kids who are goin'.

 

It's not really expected that you're goin' to get the drivers right either. Lots of units just get all the driver information for the whole unit and staple it on to the submitted form. Yeh just gather it as a service to the families as much as anything else. BSA insurance is excess coverage over the minimum required personal auto policy, eh? (dependin' on your state, of course). So yeh want to help your families and the kids by makin' sure that minimum coverage is in place.

 

Like everything the BSA does, Tour Permits are meant to be a service, a help, a program feature. Somethin' to push yeh a bit to get the most important things in place before rushin' out the door Friday night.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Eagle92]

Beavah said:

 

Your average DE won't know that much about patrol outings, eh? Remember, the job of a DE is really not to support program, or even know all da different program features.

 

Unfortunately that is true. The DE's job is the "3 M's: Money, Membership, and Manpower," and the order of those is based upon the SE's preference.

 

Now there are some, not many but some, DE's who believe that if you have a strong program, then the Membership will grow. With Membership growth comes Manpower. And with Manpower, comes more Money. But to be honest those who believe that either get out rather early, or learn to change their perspective, or get stuck in program positions that do not allow professional growth, i.e. promotions.

[Kudu]

thriftyscout writes:

 

So what is a typical Patrol Outing?

 

For me the typical Patrol Outing has always been associated with Troop backpacking trips. The whole Troop "backpacks" a very short distance on Friday night and establishes a "basecamp." A Patrol that I have trained and trust then sets off Saturday morning for an overnight loop trip and returns Sunday.

 

Meanwhile, promising Patrols do short wilderness day hikes on Saturday (sometimes accompanying the overnight Patrol for a couple of miles), while new Scouts have a more typical "static" campout at the base.

 

National Forests are the most flexible in this regard.

 

As for Tour Permits, I have never in 50 years filed one for a Patrol Outing.

 

In fact I am somewhat puzzled by the near-unanimous assumption that a Scoutmaster can somehow control this once the genie of Adventure is let out of the bottle.

 

The idea that a Patrol must get its Scoutmaster's approval goes back to William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's day.

 

But back then it simply never occurred to us to ask.

 

BSA Scouting has always been very different from Scouting in the rest of the world because our Fake Leadership theories were rigidly against Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" until Hillcourt's "lite" version (called the "Patrol Method") began to take hold in the 1930s. See the "Six Principles of Boy-Work" in the first Handbook for Scout Masters:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

 

Apparently asking the Scoutmaster's permission was a compromise between the Patrol System and the Patrol Method.

 

For contrast, read John Thurman's "transcript" of a Patrol System's typical Court of Honor (we call them "PLC Meetings") in which the Patrol Leaders not only inform the Scouters, SPL, and other PLs of their Patrol Outings after the fact, but then tell the adults which of their Scouts advanced a rank in the process! (Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, Scout Spirit and "POR" Requirements are all unique to the BSA's adult-controlled version of "Boy Led" Scouting):

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm

 

The reality is that even back when Scouting was popular, we camped with kids in the neighborhood that were in different Troops, or not even Scouts at all. Permission from our parents was all we needed.

 

By the time we got our driver's licenses, non-Scouts made up the majority of my camping Patrol. This mobility combined with our discovery of Svea 123 stoves, backpack waistbelts (a big deal at the time), cheap tents, and Mormon dried foods transformed our Patrol Outings into week-long expeditions in the Adirondack High Peaks, two hundred miles away.

 

Forty years later as Scoutmaster, some of my Patrols (including those of the District Commissioner's sons) did exactly the same thing (but driving 340 miles in each direction), in the years after I first took the DC and the entire Troop up Mt. Marcy, New York State's highest peak.

 

Even the frequent Patrol Outings I wrote about in my Winter 1997 article in Scouter Magazine about one of our twelve-year-old Patrol Leaders ("Marijus") all took place without Tour Permits! Here too, less than half of the "Red Skins Patrol" were registered in the BSA.

 

Perhaps other Scoutmasters park outside of the Scouts' homes on weekends to prevent all of this from happening! The warning signs are when the Scouts start preparing their own dried foods, and buying their own tents & backpacking stoves

 

thriftyscout writes:

 

After all the conflicting answers, I can see that this is going to require a conversation with the DE to see where our local Council stands on Patrol "activities" and what they are willing to condone.

 

Now that I have retired to the rural south, I like to bring in our local DE for my "surprise ending" of the Patrol Method presentation of SM-Specific Training: That the final "E" in "EDGE" stands for Enabling Patrol Outings

 

That being said, not all DEs are created equal. You are likely to find "conflicting answers" at your own local Council office.

 

So you might want to do your homework and find out how much your DE knows about Patrol Outings before asking him point-blank if it is OK. Other, more senior Scouting professionals might be a better choice.

 

Here again it helps to be on the Council's training staff and/or a FOS presenter.

 

Likewise even if policy turns against true Patrol Outings, remember that most Councils also have groups of volunteers who come in to help fix up the camps. You (and your older Scouts) might want to join them. I have always found large Boy Scout camps to be the very best venue to get started on the next stages of overnight "Patrol Outings" after first separating the Patrols 300 feet on Troop campouts.

 

Don't be in too much of a rush!

 

Remember that in the BSA, a Patrol Leader had six months of training: Which included hiking and camping in a "Green Bar Patrol" of Patrol Leaders (with the Scoutmaster as the Patrol Leader, and the SPL as his APL) before setting off on his own Patrol Hikes:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

For Scoutmasters who think that they actually have control over what their Patrols do away from the Troop, and therefore may depend on Tour Permits: One bellwether of "nancy" Leadership Development's final victory over the Patrol Method might be found in The Scoutmaster Handbook. As I understand it, a new printing has just been released which contains substantial revisions.

 

If anyone has verified (from the date on the page facing the table of contents) that they have this new 2010 printing, please look to see if the words "and overnighters" have been cut (as they have been on the National Website) from the following passage on page 22:

 

Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also conduct day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules....

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

[Stosh]

Gee, as a kid I didn't know I was doing patrol outings while I was in Scouts. My buddies and I went camping all the time without adults and it never dawned on us to ask anyone other than our parents.

 

The only hassle we ever got is when my dad wanted to go with us and hang out. Occasionally we let him come along.

 

Stosh

[acco40]

It's very simple. Patrol outings, as defined by the BSA require a Scoutmaster's approval but do not require adult attendance. However, any outing, should utilize a tour permit. That's just common sense. A tour permit needs to be filed by an adult (not just any adult too.). No issue. I've gone on outings and the tour permit has been filed by a member of the committee that is not going on the outing, no problem. Also, keep in mind that many possible outing locations require an adult (not a BSA rule but a legal rule) such as state and national parks, private campgrounds, etc. Contracts - are not binding for minors.

 

Now since the BSA does not regulate our lives 100% of the time, can the boys in a patrol decided to go sleep in the park without their Scoutmaster's approval? Of course they can. But it would not be a patrol outing in the eyes of the BSA. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Eagle92]

Kudu,

 

With all due respect, it looks like some councils do require a tour permit for "patrol and squad" outings.

 

 

http://www.fiverivers.org/venturing/forms/tour_permit_policy_by_frc_2-26-03.pdf

 

 

EDITED forgot to add I discoverd this trying to find the risk management book in another thread.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Kudu]

acco40 writes:

 

Also, keep in mind that many possible outing locations require an adult (not a BSA rule but a legal rule) such as state and national parks, private campgrounds, etc.

 

The operative word being "many."

 

Remember that a National "Park" is not the same as a National "Forest." The "primitive" (backpacking) areas of National Forests do not require adults, and the same is probably true for most State Park trails that begin at a "Trail Head" where you park in an unpaved or ungated area.

 

Remember that before the invention of "Leadership Development," Patrol Camping referred to what we now call "backpacking." The vision of "private campgrounds" and "contracts" implies sitting around a developed campsite like a Webelos III Patrol.

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

Kudu, With all due respect, it looks like some councils do require a tour permit for "patrol and squad" outings.

 

How exactly does that contradict anything I wrote?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)