300 feet

[thriftyscout]

Eagle92,

 

I will keep an eye out for that SMHB version. I'm also looking at Kudu.net for "vintage" information. What do you do with the Scouts that don't have enough of their patrol going on a campout?

 

 

Beavah,

 

Can a patrol on its own get a tour permit or is this something they would do as friends outside of Scouting? I am trying to sort out what is just different in "modern" Scouting as opposed to what is no longer allowed.

 

Thanks to all for the advice.

 

(This message has been edited by thriftyscout)(This message has been edited by thriftyscout)

[acco40]

Read The Scoutmaster Handbook and what it says about patrol outings. They are "doable" from a BSA perspective but for many locations - an adult is required to make reservations (i.e. minors may not). As for a tour permit, with the new on-line system, it needs to be a Scouter so no youth - i.e. a patrol can't file a tour permit.

 

That does not mean they can't go on a patrol outing, it just means that there is a proper way to do it.

[BartHumphries]

Boys who are Scouts can (with their parents permission) certainly go do their own activities. It is presumed that Scouts are not just always sitting around their house when they're not on a Scout outing, but are off "hanging" with friends, whatever.

 

So, boys who are Scouts can certainly get together and go off and do their own thing -- they likely do anyways. Unless a Scoutmaster or other appropriate adult is involved in the planning and there is two-deep leadership, etc., it will not be an official Scout activity. But boys who are Scouts can certainly go do their own thing -- none of us are going to stop them just like we don't usually stop them from doing all those activities that they already do.

 

Sometimes you have to draw a fine line between boys who are all Scouts doing something together and those same boys doing an actual Scout activity together. You need to be careful that people know where the line is and that the two don't get confused, as they require different things (official activities require permission slips, etc.). One easy way is to say that any activity done in uniform is a Scout outing and anything done in regular clothing is simply an ordinary activity.

[Stosh]

My boys have been goofing off for a couple of months now and so I as SM am now the PL. Any time a boy wishes to challenge that, he may do so.

 

Last night they were planning on updating the calendar and I said nope, not going to happen. Because they didn't do what they said they were going to do, they were now going to do what I wanted to do instead. They have had 3 months to get the calendar updated, so another week or so was no big deal.

 

I had the boys cut 4 - 48' pieces of twine. They had their 6' walking sticks and figured that out on their own. Then the 8 boys were given a stick in which they were to find one of the 8 ends of rope and tie a double half-hitch on it. 6 of the FC and the TF scout could not tie the knot. The Star rank boy was able to do it, sat down and then waited for the others. The 7 were "yelled" at for not knowing a 2C knot. The Star scout was "yelled" at for not helping his buddies. He favors himself as PL material. I don't think so as of yet.

 

I helped them string the ropes, of which they couldn't follow simple directions and got it messed up. Finally they were all ready to start twisting. They dropped their sticks, the ropes fell off and it was basically a comedy of errors. Once they got the twists in I helped them triple the rope to start twisting the opposite directions, they again couldn't/wouldn't follow directions.

 

Once they got the rope made I had them gently pull to set the rope but not break the sticks. 3 of the 8 broke their sticks.

 

I then handed each of the 8 a piece of twine to whip the ends. 2 of them preferred to fuse them because they didn't know how to whip, but did know how to fuse.

 

With 10 minutes to go I called "First Call" so they could quickly clean up the mess and get ready for closing flags. They all walked over and left the mess. That process was quickly remedied.

 

Needless to say my expedition into the world of Cub Scouts with my FC scouts was rather interesting.

 

Last week's detailed instruction in how to do a flag ceremony produced a very nice one this week in spite of the closing fiasco.

 

Next week they will all get a piece of paper and have to produce a menu/shopping list of a supper meal that I would want to eat, not them, but ME!

 

The grand experiment of having the boy lead themselves has taken a back seat. They have had all the JLT, NLT, NYLT, Green Bar Bill Training and still they haven't figured out leadership. They have reached FC (3 have had SMC's for Star in the past 3 weeks) and still they can't tie simple knots, do a respectful flag ceremony, or cook a meal for themselves.

 

Are these boys ready to go out on a patrol outing by themselves? Nope. Will they get there eventually? Yep. Not today, but eventually.

 

Doing some task to get credit for a requirement and actually learning the task seem to be two entirely different issues in today's world. Kinda makes one wonder how many Eagle Scouts out there can really perform FC tasks and function as a leader of a group in the wilderness.

 

Kudu's 300' is a good test of this process. I wonder where he got the idea from?

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

Thrift,

 

Currently, and I stress currently as there was a nasty rumor about this topic, a patrol with the SM's and parents' approval can go on an overnite campout without adults. And it would be an official BSA event.

 

Now grant you I have not seen it done. My troop as a youth was a "hiking and camping" troop that had things going on every month. It was difficult to plan separate patrol activities, other than meetings. Closest we got to a patrol event was a patrol hike, and then the SM wanted an adult with us (pre-YPT), which I assume is b/c the patrol would be considered a NSP today (we were working on Hiking Skill Award). Luckily the adult, actually he was one of the parents, was a Scout as a youth, and didn't do anything but stay "in the rear with the gear," and let us handle everything.

 

Planning and organizing that hike was a PITA b/c I had to deal with 3 separate school schedules AND the troop scedule. So finding a date to it was difficult.

 

What was funny was that when I planned it, I calculated it based on GBB's "Scout's pace" of 5 miles/hour. SM said I might want to adjust it a little since I had new scouts, so I did. BUT we made the 1/2 point in the origianl time slot and had to "eat up time" there. When we left at the scheduled time, we 'dragged along' and still made the end point ahead of the scheduled time.

 

needless to say it was a learnign expereince, and one I was glad to do as it did help later in planning troop activities.

[acco40]

So, boys who are Scouts can certainly get together and go off and do their own thing -- they likely do anyways. Unless a Scoutmaster or other appropriate adult is involved in the planning and there is two-deep leadership, etc., it will not be an official Scout activity. FALSE

 

A patrol with the SM's and parents' approval can go on an overnite campout without adults. And it would be an official BSA event. TRUE

[MomToEli]

Kinda makes one wonder how many Eagle Scouts out there can really perform FC tasks and function as a leader of a group in the wilderness.

 

Stosh, I imagine not many. I know many show up on Camp Staff and can't tie basic knots or start fire.

 

Interesting post. My dh will be very interested in it, too, I think.

 

[Eagle92]

There weren't any Eagles in my patrol, or in the other patrol with us for that matter, when I was up in the Canadian wilderness when I and another scout got hypothermia, but both patrols took care of us and knew what to do. Adults were there, but didn't really do anything as the patrol was doing what they were suppose to do.

 

BASIC SCOUTCRAFT AND THE PATROL METHOD DOES WORK!

[BadenP]

Stosh

 

My guess on the problem with your boy leadership is that your troop is just too small, one patrol, less than 10 kids, is just not the norm and seems to have de-evolved into a club instead of a troop. I fear that if you can not bring in some new blood and program ideas and soon or your troop may no longer be viable, 300 feet or not.

[Eagledad]

Good boy run units have two things that make them successful; goals or vision for all their scouts, and the understanding that the scouts have to grow from their experience from the scouting activities, not classroom instruction or standup lectures.

 

I have watched many troops that were boy run, but the scouts didn't grow much because the adults didn't have a long range goal for their scouts. A lot of adults think Eagle or SPL are good goals, but realistactly those are not the dreams of all scouts and should not be set by adults. The program needs to be driven toward more noble goals that requires scouts working and relying on each to rah the goals.

 

It's easy to force all patrols 100ft apart, but if the scouts don't become a team and grow from their participation in patrol and troop activities, they will get bored and move on.

 

As I said before, the are just some principles of nature that are hard to change without interference from the adults in boy run troop.

A patrol of young scouts the same age don't do very in a boy run program without a lot of help from the adults.

And, boys under 14 do not enjoy true leadership in a boy run troop without a lot of help from the adults.

The more the adults are involved in the scouts activities, the less boy run troop is.

 

So if you have the older scouts in your troop, try to work around those 2 principles as much as you can.

If you don't have the older scouts yet, don't ignore the vision and strive to build independent functional patrols.

 

Eagle92, I think I learned more about from your last post than all the others.

 

Barry

[Mike F]

thriftyscout asked, "What do you do with the Scouts that don't have enough of their patrol going on a campout?"

 

If we have two boys from a patrol going on a campout, they are a patrol of 2. It's more work for them and we might give them a little help, but there's no way in the world I could disrupt their patrol identity by having them mixed in with another patrol.

 

Back when I served a troop with about 135 boys, they would combine patrols on every campout to get 7-8 boys in each "patrol." This well-intentioned idea about killed the troop as patrol membership lost all meaning. We would have guys from 3 different patrols thrown together for the weekend. You know we had a problem when another troop policy that we would always go camping every month - unless we had less than 12 boys signed up. Yes - 12. And, yes, we did cancel campouts because less than 10% of the troop was attending.

[Kudu]

BartHumphries writes:

 

Perhaps we'll try 100'.

 

Nothing wrong with starting at 100 feet!

 

Likewise when a Patrol is immature and/or insists on electing an incompetent Patrol Leader, they should camp at a distance from the adults proportional to their abilities.

 

Remember that when the Patrol System (and much later, the "Patrol Method") was the dominate force in Scouting, a Patrol was run by the Patrol's most competent leader. Both the Patrol System and the Patrol Method stuck with the Patrol's best leader for as long as he was the Patrol's best leader, in the same way that Troops still stick with their best Lifeguards.

 

Mike F writes:

 

1. Keep patrols separate. If two or more patrols camp close together away from SPL/Adults, problems will often escalate.

 

That is important. The goal is NOT to keep the adults away from a clump of Patrols, but to separate all the Patrols so as to develop the responsibility of each Patrol Leader for his distinct unit.

 

Beavah writes:

 

Sometime soon maybe you'll have a patrol hike and camp for a weekend on their own, so that they can use all of their T-2-1 knowledge like navigation and site selection and such. Then if you're really wicked, yeh can plant a first aid scenario somewhere along their trail and really give 'em a workout.

 

Wicked or not, in the rest of the world a series of at least five such backwoods incidents was a requirement for the Venturer Proficiency Badge, which was required for Bushman's Cord (the equivalent of Life Scout):

 

1) Complete an adventure journey as a member of a Patrol in which you shall play a leading part.

 

The journey, which may be short in length, must include at least 5 incidents such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, Signalling over distance.

Water incidents to be included for Sea Scout Troops.

 

2) Make a journey of at least 20 miles on foot or by boat, with not more than 3 other Scouts.

 

Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country.

Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a backpack.

Maximum weight 31 lbs which must include food.

The Examiner may set the candidate 1 or 2 tasks, which require a specific report but no general log of the journey is required. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Somewhere, sometime, Kudu will be reading this and smiling

 

Yes! When it also becomes common to brag of taking the next step: Reporting these "Old-School" Adventures to auditoriums of skeptical sixth-graders to register an additional 28% of them (six months after all Webelos II Crossovers), I will be able to retire happily

 

70% of the audience will (in front of their peers) sign your clipboards asking you to call their parents so they can become a Boy Scout, so it should be easy to do better than my 28%. The desire for Adventure satisfied by the "Real" Patrol Method is all about human nature, not passing fads:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

thriftyscout writes:

 

I don't think many Scout camps are set up for Patrol vs. Troop camping.

 

It helps to be a training staffer and/or Friends of Scouting presenter, and then use your contacts to find what you are looking for. Look for Scouting professionals or senior volunteers who were Scouts before 1972, or are serious outdoorsmen in their own right. Ask the camp's Ranger and/or volunteer staff. Most (if not all) Scout camps (both large and small) have "Primitive Camping Areas" (meaning no running water or latrines).

 

The common belief that a local Scout camp can not handle Patrols camping 300 feet apart is usually based on the assumption that every Patrol site needs to be near a road. Consider purchasing a couple lightweight backpacking stoves for your most mature Patrols, so that they can "backpack" into the Primitive Camping Area without heavy equipment. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm

 

thriftyscout writes:

 

I will keep an eye out for that SMHB version.

 

The best source is AddAll.Com. Currently you can find a two volume set for $24.95. Volumes printed in the 1930s are made from much better paper, which makes a difference if you read all 1,150+ pages, but later printings of Volume One include the six month Patrol Leader Training Course (pages 208i-208xvi). See:

 

http://tinyurl.com/368exou

 

"Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" can also be found at the following URL:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

I updated the reading assignments to reference the current Scoutmaster & Patrol Leader handbooks, but in retrospect that was a bad idea because the current material does not include much real "how to" information on the Patrol Method beyond organizational charts and sitting in PLC meetings

 

An old Gilwell Patrol Leader Training Course (for multiple Troops) can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/gilwell/index.htm

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

2) what I will say will be sacrilege to Kudu,

 

"Sacrilege" implies abstract beliefs or theories. Spacing your competent Patrols 300 feet apart is the experience of Adventure. It is self-evident as soon as you dare to try it.

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

but I got say it anyway. The patrol method works if the leaders are willing to stay out of the way, even if patrols are only 10 feet away from each other (caps removed).

 

Scouting is a Game: The Patrol Method "works" if you reduce the distance between Patrols from 300 feet to 10 feet in the same way that football "works" if you reduce the field from 300 feet to 10 feet.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[thriftyscout]

Thanks to everyone for all the information and advice.

 

I thought we were about 80% of the way to Boy Led Patrol Method but after all I have read here I think we are only about 60%. You have given me alot to think about. I am blessed to have two pre-1972 Eagle Scouts as ASMs with several more on our Committee.

 

There is lots of support for Boy Led Patrol Method but we are not always sure on how to keep making progress. As I have stated before the SM training really doesn't get you there. I have considered WB but it doesn't sound like it would help in running a better Patrol Method Program.

 

I am looking forward to future 300 foot campouts and would like to start suggesting some of the wide games being referenced.

 

As far as recruiting, I'm not sure what we would do with that many Boys. We have been doing well on growth, I think due to our strong outdoor and HA program. That is also why our Venture Patrol took so well to the 300 foot seperation. They have the skills to be independent, we just weren't considering that seperation as a goal before now.

 

I expect now that the Scouts have gotten a taste for it, they will want to do this more often. Our local Council camp has an excellent area for primitive camping. I will have to see if we can open that up for Patrol Camping and other activities. It might be a good subject for a roundtable.

 

Thanks again,

 

Chuck

[Eagle92]

Kudu,

 

FYI, my reference to 10 feet apart was in situations where the troop is just starting out, patrols are full of new and/or incapable scouts or PLs, or you are placed in a situation where you have 25 square feet per patrol.

 

Thrift

 

The goal for you entire troop should actually having them campout with out adults. If memory serves, the Duke of Edinburgh Award, which is common in the UK, Commonwealth nations, other countries and I believe is now being partnered up with the BSA now, REQUIRES a scout to go on a week long trip without adults. They are allowed a cell phone, which must be sealed to prevent use except in an emergency, and are on their own for the week.

[Eagle92]

here are some links. FYI it's called the Duke of Edinburgh's Award, Young American's Challenge

 

http://www.usaward.org/

 

http://www.scoutingnews.org/2010/05/21/doe/