some feed back please

[bear dad]

Hi,

have a question for all you more experienced scouters in troops about "gageing" a troop.

Okay I have a lot of troops around me small to large. There is nothing wrong with a small troop necessarly but, my concern is when you have a troop of 6-8 boys, how can a new boy such as a recent crossover or just signed up learn the patrol method when all boys seem to eat and do things together?

 

 

When son goes to troop, and he will make that call, don't want him to overlook a troop with a small number of boys thinking it won't be a good as a larger troop, after all that is how a troop grows boy by boy.

 

Guess want him to get the most of his time and don't him to short change the experience for not knowing something just becuase it is a small troop.

I hope I put in a way so you can give some feed back.If you have some pros and cons, please respond, thanks

[shortridge]

The patrol method can work just as well with one patrol as 10. At its core, it's not so much an issue of competition among patrols as it is Scouts learning to do things on their own and operating independently of adults. Doing things together is precisely the point of the patrol method!

[Beavah]

Small troops of da size you're talking about run as a single patrol. That's just fine, eh? The experience for the boy is no different than a big troop that runs by patrol method. He spends his time working in and with his patrol.

 

Big troops tend to have more resources, more high adventure stuff and such, more gear. Small troops know their boys better and are more friendly, usually have less bullying, and often don't have da same overt level of adult run organization. Adults are more comfortable with letting boys organize small scale stuff they can easily keep track of.

 

Da average size of a troop in the US is only 14 boys, so most troops out there are pretty small. The big ones are unusual, and often shrink when da current SM moves on.

 

Biggest recommendation, though, is to let your son find the troop that he really likes.

 

Beavah

 

[boomerscout]

"a recent crossover or just signed up learn the patrol method when all boys seem to eat and do things together?"

That is a large part of the patrol method for most. He will learn by doing as he is assigned chores (fire building, water fetching, etc.) I would suggest attending a campout with each troop to see how well he meshes/is accepted

 

 

[perdidochas]

Bear Dad,

 

Isn't a patrol just a group of boys eating and doing things together? Sounds like that troop is a patrol.

[Stosh]

As a SM of a single patrol troop right now, soon to be 2 patrols, I can assure you that if the boy-led, patrol-method is used it'll work with any number of patrols. The idea is to have the boys do the work and organize themselves with minimal if not zero adult involvement.

 

The patrol-method part is only to limit the number of boys in any particular "grouping" so that the PL is truly able to run the patrol. Like classrooms in school, the larger number of students in a class the more difficult it is for the teacher no matter how experienced, trained, etc. they may be. BP felt that 6-8 boys is just the right number of boys for the aspiring leader to be able to work with effectively.

 

So if you have troop of 100 boys and your son is in a patrol of 8 boys it would be no different than a troop of 8 boys and your son is in a patrol of 8 boys.

 

As far as opportunity goes? Getting a Philmont trek together for 7 boys/2 adults is no different for a 100 boy troop or a 8 boy troop other than the fact that 92 boys have to be told they can't go along instead of just one. Same for BWCA Permits are limited to 9 people as well. Size and funding doesn't limit the smaller troops. They have less needs, less costs and per person work out the same.

 

Stosh

 

I have 11 boys in my troop presently, really too big for 1 patrol, but I don't have the leadership to split until I get another boy or two. My two strongest leaders are best friends and they would go two different ways. I've had this problem before and it doesn't work.

 

In smaller troop there will be a more blended age in the patrol. In a larger troop, it could be your boy starts in a NSP for a year or so.

 

Your boy should be able to visit and decide for himself. After all, it may just be his first truly leadership decision if mom/dad stay out of the way and let him work through what he wants out of scouting.

 

Stosh

[allangr1024]

This is the size of my troop right now. I have 10 registered, but have average 4 to 6 on campouts and at meetings. My SPL is really a glorified PL, an I interact with him like that. His job really is to see that the camping stuff gets done. I still have the troop come up with a patrol flag and yell, and respect the leadership.

 

My big problem is that with 4 to 6 at troop meetings, I am afraid that visiting cub scouts will see hardly anyone there, and decide to find a "substantial" troop. I would love to have 30 scouts in 4 patrols, but am just learning the recruiting job. It seems that it took me 3 years as SM to see how this works in my district.

 

I also have to keep telling the other 3 adults working with the troop, "Let the boys do that." They always want to step in when something is not done "right" and see that it gets done. I don't think they trust the scouts to run a weekend camp out.

 

But I think a troop of one patrol can still be boy led and PLC directed. Our PLC has only the SPL and a troop guide on it, but they are given the authority to make decisions for the patrol.

 

[bear dad]

Guess it would depend on the troop itself how it is ran and such.We have been invited to a troop outing which soem older boys are doing a longer back pack hike around 15 miles, while the younger boys and webelos would do a shorter say 3-5 mile hike.

I am okay with that, but if the whole thing is design to interact with a troop in this case as a whole, how do you do that if half of boys are not around?

[Stosh]

allangr1024,

 

You sound very similar to what I'm facing. Maybe by sharing a bit of what we do it might help you.

 

"This is the size of my troop right now. I have 10 registered, but have average 4 to 6 on campouts and at meetings."

 

I have 11 registered, but I have maybe only 1 or 2 at the most missing any campout or meeting. All were in attendance last night at our meeting. I attribute this to the boys have the ownership of the program.

 

"My SPL is really a glorified PL, an I interact with him like that. His job really is to see that the camping stuff gets done. I still have the troop come up with a patrol flag and yell, and respect the leadership."

 

I have no SPL, I just have a PL over the 11 boys. It's not a good situation (too many boys in one patrol) and as soon as I get another boy or two we'll split into 2 patrols. Even then I don't see a need for a SPL. As far as PLC the PL can make all the plans for his patrol so again the PLC group is unnecessary to us. It sounds like you have just a patrol anyway, same as me.

 

"My big problem is that with 4 to 6 at troop meetings, I am afraid that visiting cub scouts will see hardly anyone there, and decide to find a "substantial" troop."

 

Yep, been there, done that. But, the other troop in town has taken on close to 50 Webelos cross-overs over the past 3 years and we got maybe six or seven and then most of them didn't want to work very hard and transferred over to the other troop anyway. Even with that number setup, at most district events like camporees, they don't have any more in attendance than we do. Most of their boys have quit or are inactive. On the other hand, I explain to the Webelos parents that in spite of the low numbers, I just did a double ECOH this past spring and have 2 boys at Life rank that will begin looking seriously into their Eagle projects this coming winter. All but one boy are FC or above.

 

"I would love to have 30 scouts in 4 patrols, but am just learning the recruiting job. It seems that it took me 3 years as SM to see how this works in my district."

 

On this point we diverge a bit. I'd rather go for quality rather than quantify. I've been at it for 3 years too. Our numbers might be small but it would seem that a lot of other troops keep hanging around asking a lot of questions about our program to take back to theirs. If we get at least 6 cross-overs this winter and with our older boys number up around 12, we can conceivably have 3 small patrols in the troop. That will maximize the leadership opportunities for the boys.

 

"I also have to keep telling the other 3 adults working with the troop, "Let the boys do that." They always want to step in when something is not done "right" and see that it gets done."

 

Yep. I find the #1 job of the SM is to keep the adults from interfering with the boys! You're on the right track, don't back down.

 

"I don't think they trust the scouts to run a weekend camp out."

 

Get adults that can trust. After all, the boys are working towards being Trustworthy. If never given the opportunity to show trustworthiness, then the adults are interfering in the boys living up to the Scout Law.

 

"But I think a troop of one patrol can still be boy led and PLC directed. Our PLC has only the SPL and a troop guide on it, but they are given the authority to make decisions for the patrol."

 

There's a lot of unnecessary titles and labels here, but you really don't need a PLC or SPL or even a TG. All you need is a good PL and APL and let them just lead their patrol. That's what the patrol-method is all about. If you have a PL, and APL, an SPL and a TG and you have 5 boys go on an outing, that means one boy is left to be the patrol. Maybe he could be the Chaplain's Aide and then you'd have all chiefs and no Indians. Unfortunately you need a few Indians to lead to develop real leadership.

 

You're on the right track and just deal with what you have, you'll appreciate the smallness and closeness you have with the boys because if you get up to 30 boys, you're going to lose a lot of that and it'll be missed.

 

Stosh

[TroopGuy]

Whether the troop is using the patrol method or not I don't think has so much to do with the troop size as it has to do with the Scoutmaster and the Troop Committee and how dedicated they are to letting the boys lead.

 

Bigger troops tend to have bigger programs, more money for equipment, etc. These are things that can be readily seen when you go camping with them.

 

Smaller troops may also have advantages, but those advantages are less tangible and no guarantee.

 

I would recommend you ask questions about things that may have impact years down the road. For example, what is the troop's relation to the Chartering Organization? Does the CO really oversee and support the troop or are they just the CO on paper? Does the CO Rep actually meet with the Troop Committee? Was the Troop Committee actually selected by the CO or is it just a small group of parents learning the job as they go and possibly bogged down with a lot of disagreements because they have no unifying vision?

 

How was the Scoutmaster chosen by the Troop Committee? Was there a careful selection process, or was he just the only dad who was willing to do the job for a couple years, but only until his son makes Eagle? How likely then is it that the vision of the troop will change drastically when the the next parent Scoutmaster takes over?

 

These are important questions that I wish I'd asked when my son got into Scouting, but I had no clue.

 

Good luck.