So about 300 yards...

[Kudu]

No, but I would like to be proven wrong

 

Presumably Baden-Powell's minimum standard was not compatible with the BSA's first "leadership" theory, The Six Principles of Boy Work:

 

"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols."

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

You might check the early Wood Badge staff books for suggestions on how far apart to space the Wood Badge Patrols. It was common practice to assign each Patrol its own Troop campsite.(This message has been edited by kudu)

[bnelon44]

>No, but I would like to be proven wrong

 

OK, so it was not an official policy of B-P's but a suggestion that you found useful.

 

>"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols."

 

That is a quote from the 1st Handbook for Scoutmasters which was completely reversed from the 1936 BSA Handbook for Soutmasters onward. Care should be taken not to take anything from the 1st Handbook for Scoutmasters as indicative of the BSA beyond 1929.

 

>You might try the early Wood Badge staff books for suggestions along the same lines. It was common practice to assign each Wood Badge Patrol its own Troop campsite

 

Thanks but it doesn't give me the instruction I was looking for.

 

I am glad you find 100 yards productive for your troop. And it may well be productive for other troops, but I guess it wasn't mandated, or even stressed by B-P or Hillcourt in any of their handbooks meant to be read by Scouts, PL or SMs.

 

Again, it may be a good idea, and it may not (depending on how independent and mature the patrol and Scouts are), but to say it is a fundamental institution of Scouting? I think I would have so see more evidence that this was ever the case.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[Kudu]

Bnelon44 writes:

 

Again, it may be a good idea, and it may not (depending on how independent and mature the patrol and Scouts are), but to say it is a fundamental institution of Scouting?

 

Um, the "Fundamental Institution of Scouting" is the Patrol Hike under the sole leadership of the Patrol Leader.

 

At the very least every Patrol Leader should be planning and leading (without adults, SPLs, Troop Guides, etc.) on a regular basis all the "five mile hikes" that his Scouts will ever need for Second Class.

 

The goal of Patrol Hikes is to qualify for Patrol Camping.

 

According to Green Bar Bill, this process is what defines a "Real" Patrol.

 

That is what all those pretty words are about: All those Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill quotes that modern "leadership" enthusiasts so love to sprinkle around without ever driving home that they refer to the most fundamental experience of Scouting, unsupervised Patrol Hikes and unsupervised Patrol Campouts.

 

Bnelon44 writes:

 

I think I would have so see more evidence that this was ever the case.

 

Why not stick to Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts?

 

I'm sure that you are familiar enough with chapters six and seven of Green Bar Bill's Handbook for Patrol Leaders, to know what a "Real" Patrol is.

 

Likewise in his Handbook for Scoutmasters, GBB said to get those Patrols out camping without adult supervision as soon as possible.

 

If a Patrol and its Scouts are not "independent and mature enough" to camp miles from the nearest adult, then it is not a "Real" Patrol. So what difference does the "official policy of B-P's" make then?

 

Baden-Powell's 100 yard guideline is really the Troop Method: Just a simulation of the Patrol System within the safety of an adult-supervised Troop Campout.

 

Those who object to something so simple have never tried it.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit.

 

Baden-Powell

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/traditional/100_yards.htm

 

[bnelon44]

Yes, I would tend to agree that the 100 yards is a suggestion for a troop process. One that helps the patrol method, as it would help the patrols function as a unit and maybe convince them they can do things on their own. It doesn't seem to have been stressed though outside of an article by B-P in his version of scouting magazine. It is hardly a fundamental method of his idea of scouting and if a troop in the US doesn't practice it, it is somehow less of a troop.

 

Having said that, I am all in favor of independent patrol activities

 

There are lots of things patrols can do on their own without adults. And lots of things they can do separately from the troop with adult supervision. I think what we should be encouraging is that all patrols try to become more independent from the troop.

 

See the SRD PM survey results for my views on the subject that I recently shared with my district at: www.bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod

 

 

 

[acco40]

Jeesh, there is nothing magical about 100 yards, 100 feet or separate campsites.

 

The thing to remember is the basic unit in scouting is the patrol, not the troop. As a Scoutmaster, judging by how much interaction we had between the adults, boys and both intra and inter-patrol I would adjust patrol separation accordingly - working with the SPL and others of course.

 

One year, we had Webelos join us for a weekend outing. Our patrols are loosely aged based - what the Scouts wanted. We camped in one site with the Webelos and their parents, younger Scouts and troop adults. I encouraged the older scouts to have a "patrol outing" about a mile away - no adults within earshot or by sight line. The older boys loved it. Now, some of the "older" boys were really only with the troop for a little over a year so myself and another adult would just happen to stroll into their camp site first thing in the morning and right before bed to "just say hello." It was a memorable experience for them and they remembered that outing fondly for many years.

[Kudu]

I wrote:

 

No, but I would like to be proven wrong.

 

bnelon44 wrote:

 

OK, so it was not an official policy of B-P's but a suggestion that you found useful.

 

I was talking about the BSA program, which replaced his Patrol System with leadership theory (history repeats itself).

 

bnelon44 writes:

 

Also, I realize B-P suggested 100 yards in an Outlook article. Did he put it down as a "rule" in any of his handbooks?

 

Baden-Powell wrote only one Boy Scout handbook, Scouting for Boys, which has sold 100 to 150 million copies since 1908. I haven't found the 100 yards guideline in the 1908 printing, but to all of the later editions he added the following as the first sentence of "Making Camp" (Yarn 9: Camping):

 

"In Scout camps the tents are not pitched in lines and streets as in military camps, but are dotted about in Patrol units, fifty or a hundred yards apart or more, in a big circle round the Scoutmaster's tent, which, with the flag and camp fire, is generally in the centre."

 

So now that you know that in all his millions of handbooks around the world, B-P specified specific distances between Patrols, what exciting new training possibilities does that bring to mind?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net(This message has been edited by kudu)

[TAHAWK]

Rick, you say "Baden-Powell's 100 yard guideline is really the Troop Method: Just a simulation of the Patrol System within the safety of an adult-supervised Troop Campout."

 

So even BP got "traditional Scouting" wrong? I recall that BP started out wanting Patrol Leaders appointed by the Scoutmaster. Even Homer nods. 0____0

 

As for Scouting for Boys, patrols, and 300 feet:

 

"It is not intended that boy scouts should necessarily form a new corps separate from all others, but the boys who belong to any existing organization, such as schools, football clubs, Bots' or Church Lads' Brigades . . . can also take up scouting in addition. . . .

But where there are any boys who do not belong to any kind of organization -- and there is a very large number of such boys about the United Kingdom -- they can form themselves into Patrols and become Boy Scouts."

For this purpose officers are necessary." [scouting for Boys at p. 35.]

 

 

"CAMPFIRE YARN. - No. 12. [No. 9 is solely about nature.]

 

Some people talk of 'roughing it' in camp. Those people are generally 'tenderfoots' . . . .[scouting for Boys at p. 154.]

. . .

CAMP ORDERS . . .

 

Such orders might point out that each patrol will camp separately from the others, and there will be a comparison between respective cleanliness and good order of the tents and surrounding ground." [scouting for Boys at p. 163]

 

 

Respectfully, is it not the separateness that is more important than the actual distance?

[Kudu]

Tahawk,

 

Thank you for your brevity and civility.

 

Tahawk writes:

 

"CAMPFIRE YARN. - No. 12. [No. 9 is solely about nature.]

 

Yes, it is Yarn 12 in the 1908 edition. The standard in Traditional Scouting is the "Memorial Edition" (1942), or the more commonly available "World Brotherhood Edition" edited by Green Bar Bill.

 

Tahawk quotes B-P:

 

"CAMP ORDERS . . .

 

"Such orders might point out that each patrol will camp separately from the others...."

 

Tahawk writes:

 

Respectfully, is it not the separateness that is more important than the actual distance?

 

To an adult, perhaps. A specific distance is more common in games: Every boy understands "Set up your Patrols a football field apart."

 

Apparently the "each patrol will camp separately from the others" guideline of the 1908 edition was not specific enough, because the standard distance (50 to 100 or more yards) was added to all of the later editions of Scouting for Boys (including Hillcourt's American edition).

 

The same specific distance between Patrols also appears in the international "how-to" texts including The Patrol System, by Roland Philipps, and Boy Scouts, by Gilcraft.

 

I would think that every leadership enthusiast would be eager to test his or her modern theories against Baden-Powell's international standard.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet

 

 

 

 

[ntrog8r]

Oh how I hesitate to enter this fray!

 

As an advocate of "300 feet",

 

Personally, I think the "separateness" is more important than the actual distance. After all terrain, vegetation, etc can all combine to create isolation at varying distances. Scouting in southern AZ often required at least 300 feet to get Patrols far enough apart to function independently of one another - and the adults. BUT, when we ventured into some of the canyon areas less than 300 feet was needed - and honestly who carries a yard stick or does pace counts to measure this anyway? I suspect, but do not know for sure, the reason a distance needs to be stated at all is not for the Scouts but for the adults.

 

When, as the newly appointed SM, I began to implement my own crazy ideas of Scouting (like Patrol hikes, Patrol camps, Patrol flags, Patrol yells, Patrol equipment, crazy stuff) there was quite a bit of resistance. Parents and committee members (and even the DE) were just not sure why the Scouts would have Patrol meetings every week instead of troop meetings or if it was "healthy" for the troop to have inter-Patrol contests. Patrols out on hikes or learning outdoor skills separate from one another was sure heresy, besides just "asking for trouble".

 

Over time, PLs got the hang of things (PL/SPL training - different topic). Patrols really started to bond and developed their own identities. And, over time, their campsites kept moving further and further away from each other. To achieve change required training for the youth and adults. Part of that training (for the adults) included the GOAL of 300 feet, although it started at 100 feet.

 

I imagine though, without a stated distance (50 - 100 yards) many adults would be content with "separateness" of 25 feet or less regardless of terrain or conditions. 300 feet defines the idea of "separateness" a little better and helps everyone to understand what the intent is. At least that has been my experience in a couple of troops and Councils.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Kudu -

 

Thanks, you solved the mystery of what SM Handbook the SM of the troop we came from is now working out of..

 

We just thought he was following the newer dumming down of scouting program. But, who knew he was really going back to the basics of the original BSA scouting program.

 

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[bnelon44]

What ntrog8r said matches my experience as well. As patrols become more cohesive, they naturally tend to separate farther and farther apart while camping. Adults don't have to tell them where to camp.

[bnelon44]

Kudu,

Found it in The Patrol System by Philipps which is here:

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/Patrol%20System.pdf

 

"In Scouts' camps the tents are not pitched in lines and streets as in military camps, but are dotted about, 50 to 100 yards or more, in a big circle round the Scoutmaster's tent.

This keeps each patrol separate as a unit."

 

And in my copy of Scouting for Boys (34th Edition) it says something very similar. So it is indeed documented in authoritive UK Scouting guidebooks.

 

You are correct and I was wrong. Thanks for the pointer.

 

Still looking for some reference in official BSA handbooks that tell a PL or SM to camp that way.

 

I think most of us have done this anyway... more or less, depending on the age and maturity of the patrol.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)