Patrol outings

[shortridge]

I really, really, REALLY hate to post this.

 

But it looks like the paranoia in some circles may be justified.

 

The G2SS is unchanged, but the current verbiage on scouting.org - advice for a new Patrol Leader, ostensibly - now reads:

 

Patrol Activities

 

Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also conduct day hikes and service projects independent of the troop, as long as they follow two rules:

 

* The Scoutmaster approves the activity.

* The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.

 

 

(Emphasis mine.)

 

Some uptight folks could certainly point to that as justification that overnights aren't allowed, because they're not mentioned.

[Beavah]

Nah, short ridge, what CA is talkin' about isn't independent of da troop, eh? It's a patrol activity "within the framework" of a troop outing. The adults are on da outing, just not particularly close

 

Word on da street is that da risk adverse legal types are runnin' da show on the new round of documents coming out, so I expect we will see some more potentially restrictive wording. Depending on how yeh interpret it

 

Beavah

[shortridge]

Hopefully they'll be as poorly written as the rest of the stuff National puts out, so there'll be plenty of opportunities for loopholes.

[Kudu]

Can we just do the program and not worry about what the rumors are or is paranoia taught in the pre 1972 Wood Badge Curriculum because it is not currently and at least that simple fact should be seen as an improvement

 

Can we just do a sentence diagram?

 

And no, I am not attacking Kudu personally that would not be nice, but I am wearing a bit thin on his use of language such as "Wood Badge Idiots" so I guess I would say I am mocking him, which is different than attacking him

 

I do like your capitalization of "Idiots."

 

That confers upon Wood Badge Idiocy its rightful status as a commonly recognized Program Element

 

Simply put: Wood Badge makes you stupid.

 

Well, OK: Stupid or evil.

 

How else do you explain why, in the "Patrol Method" presentation of "Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training," there is no mention of a Patrol Leader, nor is there a description of a working Patrol?

 

The Patrol Method presentation, mind you.

 

Can we just do the program, OGE? There is no Program Element more basic to Scouting than the Patrol Method.

 

As UCEagle72 points out, Patrol Outings are the purpose of the Patrol Method. At least they were before the 1972 invention of Leadership Development took Hillcourt's (Patrol Outing) Patrol Leader Training course away from Patrol Leaders and replaced it with fake leadership formulas.

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Why do you suppose EVERY Boy Scout leader does not know about Patrol Outings, let alone how to train their Patrol Leaders to practice them (if only in the context of CA_Scouter's proposal, or B-P's 300 feet)?

 

Maybe because the Wood Badge Idiots replaced Patrols and Patrol Leaders with pointers on Adult EDGE Supervision?

 

How do you leave the Patrol Leader out of the Patrol Method?

 

How do you leave a description of a working Patrol out of the Patrol Method?

 

It is either Sheer Stupidity or Absolute Evil.

 

Sheer Stupidity gives Wood Badge Idiots the benefit of the doubt!

 

Absolute Evil puts Leadership Development's intentional switch from Patrol Outings to Leadership Development Wood Badge (Adult EDGE "Controlled Failure") in the larger context of the tens of trillions of dollars that similar CEO worship "leadership" training cost the world

 

So which is it Old Grey Eagle?

 

Removing the Patrol Method from the Patrol Method presentation of SM-Specific Training:

 

Sheer Stupidity or Absolute Evil?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

What it is my dear Kudu is me standing up to a long time bully, I do not appreciate your style

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

What it is my dear Kudu is me standing up to a long time bully, I do not appreciate your style

 

That is the point, isn't it Mr. Moderator? It is impossible to explain Wood Badge's destruction of William Hillcourt's Patrol Method, except through ad hominem attacks.

 

In fact the first such recorded ad hominem attack was launched in 1965 by Dr. John W. Larson (the inventor of Leadership Development Wood Badge) against William Hillcourt himself:

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

Perhaps you should take a day off from your Moderator duties and study Wood Badge Logic:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

In the meantime, my question to all Wood Badge Staffers is straightforward enough:

 

Why did the nation's top "Leadership Development" experts leave the Patrol Leader and a description of a working Patrol out of the "Patrol Method" presentation of SM-Specific Training?

 

Sheer Stupidity or Absolute Evil?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry if you think being labeled a bully is an "ad hominem" attack, I call it calling a spade a spade

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle

 

Sorry if you think being labeled a bully is an "ad hominem" attack, I call it calling a spade a spade

 

You are not "sorry," OGE, because your posts are textbook examples of ad hominem, something that a Scouter.Com Moderator should understand.

 

The question remains: How could any Boy Scout training leave the Patrol Leader and a description of a working Patrol out of a Patrol Method presentation?

 

The answer to that question explains why Committee members (like those in CA_Scouter's Troop) all over the United States veto the most fundamental function of a Patrol--at least according to B-P and William Hillcourt (see the "Site Dedication" on the lower right-hand side of this screen).

 

The reason that you can not rationally discuss these issues, OGE, is your emotional reaction to the fact that unlike Shortridge, "I really, really, REALLY" do NOT "hate to post" the obvious:

 

National committees of Wood Badge experts are hard at work removing "and overnighters" from descriptions of Patrol activities "independent of the troop and free of adult leadership," while at the same time offering boxes of tissue to weepy Wolf Den Leaders enrolled in their new fake leadership for the 21st century course.

 

Until the Wolf Den Leadership experts finish editing the official Boy Scout handbooks, the full uncensored version of Patrol Overnighters can still be found at:

 

Scoutmaster Handbook: Page 22

 

SPL Handbook: Page 28

 

Patrol Leader Handbook: Page 28.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I agree with OGE. The issue (concerning Kudu) is not which training method is correct or incorrect, and the issue is not whether someone said something inappropriate back in 1965. The issue is whether calling people "stupid" and "evil" (or "stupid OR evil"), or idiots (or Idiots) is an appropriate way to communicate in THIS forum. I don't think it is. We don't need to be calling people names because they believe in a different training method. Personally I think that Scoutmasters and ASM's (leaving aside any other positions) need to be well-trained in outdoor skills AND leadership skills (and other skills such as dealing with behavior issues, how to best teach skills to boys, etc.) The two (or more) are not mutually exclusive. If you disagree, am I stupid, evil or an idiot? I think it's none of the above. We just have different opinions. I also think, Kudu, that you have a lot of good and useful things to say and I agree with some of your opinions, but you weaken the force of your message by calling people stupid, evil, etc. The message gets lost amidst the nastiness.

[CA_Scouter]

Moderators: As originator of this post, I respectfully ask that it be closed.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

CA, I don't plan on closing this thread, as to do so could possibly give some a reason to say that as a Moderator I control the direction of threads.

 

edited:

Other Moderators are free of course to exercise their own judgement(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[CA_Scouter]

IMHO - threads should be closed when they veer so far off topic that the entire original message is forgotten, or they turn into a rant or name calling exercise, as this one is starting to...

 

Too many discussions in this forum are ruined with persons pushing their own personal agenda or the Thought Police lambasting a poster for asking a simple question. Sheesh. Some of us have real lives and Scouting is a part of it, not ALL of it.

 

 

Yours at 2 miles...

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

CA_Scouter writes:

 

"So.. does the BSA permit the older scout patrol to go without adult supervision or not?"

 

I answered your question with specific page references.

 

I even gave you good advice about not picking a fresh DE who is likely to panic and say "no."

 

How did that telephone conversation go, by the way?

 

The problem is that the BSA is the only Scouting association in the world that does not issue every member a copy of the official rules and regulations (usually called the "Policy, Organization, and Rules").

 

For Example, B-P's last PO&R:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/index.htm

 

Most Americans do not have a copy of the BSA's actual rules, so we have to guess by reading handbooks and asking BSA professionals or Wood Badge experts.

 

CA_Scouter writes:

 

IMHO - threads should be closed when they veer so far off topic that the entire original message is forgotten

 

That will teach you to never again post to get a few comments/opinions...., now won't it?

 

Like it or not, all questions about Patrol Overnights policy are directly related to Leadership Development's removal of Patrol Leader Training (which taught Patrol Leaders how to conduct Patrol Outings), and its replacement with "leadership" formulas.

 

The removal of the Patrol Leader and ANY description of a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation of the current SM-Specific Training (and replacing them with 20 minutes of EDGE theory), is just more of the same: The consistent nature of what leadership theory does to real-world backwoods leadership.

 

You may not like the big picture, but there it is!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

Agreed Kudu. I am a failure as a SM.

 

I just received this from my esteemed Committee member:

 

This is the official guidelines of the BSA out of their current Youth Protection and Adult Leadership manual. I have underlined #6 for your review. Yes #1 speaks of patrol activities and this is I think where you came up with your thought process for the older boys but it relates to issues not involving camping. If the older patrol goes out on its own without proper adult supervision and something should happen you not only open yourself up to possible lawsuits but it also will extend to every registered member of the committee.

 

( I included only #6 below )

 

Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

 

6. Safety rule of four: No fewer than four individuals (always with the minimum of two adults) go on any backcountry expedition or campout. If an accident occurs, one person stays with the injured, and two go for help. Additional adult leadership requirements must reflect an awareness of such factors as size and skill level of the group, anticipated environmental conditions, and overall degree of challenge.

 

Oddly enough Kudu, on your reference to page 3 of the G2SS, it states exactly the same thing ( thought its numbered as item #3).

 

I read this as a pretty clear 'no', yet you ( and others here ) seem to indicate this planned activity is permissable under BSA rules?

 

What am I missing here?

 

 

( and I haven't heard back from Council yet )

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

CA Scouter, the simple answer to your question is that there is no policy statement from the BSA that prohibits what you want to do. There may yet be one, in six months, a year, two years, but at present there is not.

 

The phrase in what your committee member quoted, "always with the minimum of two adults", is simply a reference to the two-deep leadership rule, which as others have posted (with quotations), does not apply on patrol activities. There is no policy that patrol activities exclude campouts.

 

Of course, this brings up yet another tangent: Why can't the BSA provide its local volunteers with rules that are clear and consistent? On the other hand, I (along with others) fear that when the BSA finally does speak in a clear, single voice on this subject, the result will be no more patrol overnights without adults.