Patrol outings

[CA_Scouter]

Tried to read thru some previous threads on this but they became entagled in verbiage so couldn't determine an answer...

 

We are planning a one night backpack trip next month. Older scout patrol ( star and above ) want to go out on their own, no adult supervision. These are experienced backpackers, 6-10 backpack trips for each.. Myself and the asm's will take the younger scout patrol in the same area but hike and camp separately ( mebbe 2 miles apart or so ).

 

One of my committee members says we can't do that ( no 2 deep leadership ). I say 2 deep leadership is to prevent one on one contact, that patrol outings don't have a 2 deep requirement. He says I won't get a tour permit from council.

 

I'll be calling council later today but thought I post to get a few comments/opinions....

 

So.. does the BSA permit the older scout patrol to go without adult supervision or not?

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Yep, as long as they have SM approval.

 

For me this is more of a goal I have for scouting than to get them individually to Eagle.

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle]

I know I may get tagged a pedantic book thumper but this is from the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

 

NB

"...such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required.."

 

 

[Troop185]

I agree, this is great for the older scouts and gives the younger scouts something to look forward to.

 

I do not think it would be a problem with the tour permit. You are all going to the same area, and you do have two adults names to put on the permit. Just list the total numbers of scouts. [i would make sure the older scouts had a way to contact and check in with the adults.]

[Eagle92]

OK call me a helicopter parent, but here it goes. now remember this is me A) not knowing the patrol, and B) me dealign with Cubs for the past year.

 

1) I would make sure the SPL and SM shake them down prior to the trip to ensure they have everything they need.

 

2) the carry a communication device, i.e. radio, or cell phone just in case.

[UCEagle72]

'92 --

 

This meets the whole purpose of the Patrol Method. They are older, more experienced Scouts, on a one-night trip, on their own, doing what a Patrol *should* be doing.

 

I sure hope they DON'T need a shakedown -- these are requirements they completed for 2nd and 1st Class!

 

However, I can concur on the emergency communication. Of course, depending on how far they are from a cell tower, it could easily become "un-needed weight."

[beardad]

I was never in scouts as a kid, but I can remember in highschool (early to mid ninties) going camping with my friends with no adults.

 

I don't see why kids would need adult supervision just because they are in an orignization. as long as parents are ok with it, there you go.

[Anonymous]

 

GOOD FOR THEM!!!

 

And congratulations to you. All your hard work is paying off.

 

As long as they are, in fact, a Patrol, and you approve their plan, they can go. It is, in fact, what the boys should be doing. It is what Scouting is all about.

 

My boy did it, and they still talk about it. As soon as his Patrol went, all the other Patrols started planning their own Patrol overnighters. One other Patrol has gone since. The boys regard it as "having arrived" as compotent Scouts.

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=252607#id_255293

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

'72

 

Yep that is what scouting should be about: going on your own. I've been dealing with Cubbies for to long now. Ok the whoop whoop whoop noise is now leaving the area

 

(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Eagledad]

>>1) I would make sure the SPL and SM shake them down prior to the trip to ensure they have everything they need.

[Kudu]

I use Patrol Outings as the "surprise ending" to the absolutely dreadful "Patrol Method" presentation of "SM & ASM Specific Training" when I staff it.

 

Of course there is no mention of the Patrol Method in the Patrol Method session because national Wood Badge experts removed the Patrol Leaders to make room for adult EDGE supervision.

 

The entire so-called "Patrol Method" session is actually about the "Adult Association" Method. In the beginning we are supposed to ask if any of the participants have any concerns about campouts. Usually nobody says anything, so I say:

 

"OK, so everybody here is OK with dropping your Scouts off on Friday night and saying 'We adults will meet you here Sunday morning. Have a nice weekend, and remember that we TRUST you!'"

 

The participants break up laughing and I lead a brief discussion to figure out which four of them are the most outspoken advocates of helicopter Scouting.

 

Then I lead them through the required fake leadership EDGE method until we get to "Enable." I read Hillcourt's definition of a "Real Patrol," and to the four future Wood Badge idiots I hand out the following:

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting: Page 3

 

The Scoutmaster Handbook: Page 22

 

The SPL Handbook: Page 28

 

The Patrol Leader Handbook: Page 28.

 

Then I have the four of them read out-loud the passages about "overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership..."

 

I do suggest that before they try that, they first experiment with Baden-Powell's minimum standard on Troop campouts of 300 feet between Patrols ("Just like you will do at Wood Badge"), with the actual distance of each Patrol based on its maturity.

 

CA_Scouter writes:

 

I'll be calling council later today but thought I post to get a few comments/opinions....

 

Rumor has it that the national safety committee was shocked to discover that Patrols are still allowed to do what both Baden-Powell's Patrol System and Green Bar Bill's BSA Patrol Method were designed to do (before the invention of "Leadership Development," of course). So they are now working overtime to officially stamp out the Patrol Method in time to celebrate the BSA's corporate centennial

 

So, you might want to think about exactly WHO you want to talk to when you call Council.

 

I'd look for an old-timer who is more likely to say "yes" than a fresh DE who might panic and say "no."

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[OldGreyEagle]

I am bound by conventionality to add:

 

Rumor has it JFK's brain is alive and well and being taken care off on a desolate Greek Island while top scientists are cloning JFK a new body

 

100,000 black UN Helicopters are massing in Wyoming and MOntana, once the word is given the Trilateral Commission will take over the US and split us into 4 Federal Reserves

 

Any day now the guys who "shot" the moon landing hoax will come forward with a documentary explaining how they convinced the world we landed on the moon from a sound lot at Universal

 

 

Can we just do the program and not worry about what the rumors are or is paranoia taught in the pre 1972 Wood Badge Curriculum because it is not currently and at least that simple fact should be seen as an improvement

 

And no, I am not attacking Kudu personally that would not be nice, but I am wearing a bit thin on his use of language such as "Wood Badge Idiots" so I guess I would say I am mocking him, which is different than attacking him

[UCEagle72]

Kudu ...

 

I did the Patrol Method section of our last SM/ASM Basic training. I skipped over most of the slides (but left EDGE up there) ... talked about the "real" Patrol Method, using my old "Handbook for Patrol Leaders", and with about 5 minutes left, I explained the EDGE method, so that they would have some idea on what their Scouts were to be using for the latest batch of rank requirements.

 

And I left the "patrol outings" for my last topic as well. I just love the looks you get when you tell them that a Patrol can go camping or hiking on their own.

 

 

 

 

[Knot Head]

We have some older scouts who recently planned and executed an overnight backpacking trip. Some of the *ahem* "leaders" on the committee were not in favor of this so the kids did not file a tour permit nor refer to it as a scouting activity. They can drive as 16 year olds so off they went. They got no Troopmaster credit but shrugged that off. Didn't like it, but accepted it. The kids who went are Philmont vets. They hike too fast for my taste but I was certainly proud they did 30 miles in 2 days on a pretty hard trail with no cell coverage (but other hikers on the trail). I remember when they were little pups on their first 5 miler. Now they blow thru 15 miles in a day with elevation change like it is no big deal. I wish I could still do that!

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, CA_Scouter, that's pretty low-grade as an independent patrol hike, and you adults are going to be pretty close, eh? You've covered two-deep because you have two adults on the outing. Letting experienced lads hike and camp on their own for a short stretch should be a no-brainer.

 

If you're comfortable with it, go for it. Actually, even if you're a little bit uncomfortable with it, eh? . That's normal adult jitters, like giving your teenager keys to the car.

 

Beavah