Hey Kudu Patrol method question or opinion

[moosetracker]

We had that problem of about an equal amount of adults to youth going on events. The SM weeded out the party goers from those who really wanted to contribute to the troop by asking the troop to enforce a rule that any adults going on events would be truely trained with not the committee required training, but the required training for SM/ASM.. He spent more time babysitting the adults then being a SM.

 

Those who trained up were serious about going on events, and when they went they knew how to guide scouts when they needed to step in for saftey reasons, and allow the SPL or PL to step in when it was them who should be. It worked out well. Now we are down to our troop running the risk of not having the 2 deep leadership and events being cancelled. Those rules are no longer followed.

 

If the SM is a big kid who see the outings as a party, and doesn't know when to let the scouts run their own program. I doubt this type of process will be something your troop will adopt.

[CalicoPenn]

I'm actually a bit surprised by Kudu's answer.

 

I would have thought the answer would be much simpler.

 

How many adults should be on the campout? None. Drive them to the campground, then go get a motel room and leave them alone. Give the SPL a cell phone for emergencies and viola - done.

 

But if you must have adults around, then 2 (assuming 1 per patrol) but no more than 3 - and they camp separately and leave the boys to do what they need to do. Anyone else who comes along as a driver either goes home or goes into town and takes a motel room. Or if they must stay in camp, they camp with the other adults then vamoose after breakfast - out fishing, or hiking, or visiting town. As you increase the numbers of patrols, add an adult - but the adults stay in their own area unless invited by the Scouts to participate in something.

 

One of the best troop camp trips we ever had was with 6 patrols and 7 adults - on Saturday morning, the adults disappeared and we didn't see them again until dinner time. The next day, the state park supervisor came by at breakfast and presented a certificate to the adults to thank them for a service project they performed for the park the previous day. None of us knew what they had been doing with their time (we knew what we were doing - a nice long hike, with time for a game of capture the flag in the afternoon). I can't think of a stronger example of service than that.

[VigilEagle04]

While I understand a lot of the sentiment for adults not being around, there is the little matter of BSA policy. Two adult leaders on any Scouting function.

[Stosh]

2 adults except for patrol outings where, with SM permission a patrol can go on a "scout outing" without any adults.

 

I instruct my boys that Eagle is not the "goal" of Scouting, patrol outings without adults IS!

 

Do I maintain a "lifeline" for the boys? Depends on the boys. If my JASM wishes to accompany a patrol of boys, I don't see a problem. If a patrol of all 16-17 year olds wish to go on a hike with overnight camping in the area and carry a cell for emergencies. Depending on the boys, no problem. If a group of mature 14-15 year olds wish to do a day hike into the back country. Go for it. I'll sit home and pout because I didn't get invited!

 

Stosh

[Kudu]

VigilEagle04,

 

The exemption of Patrol outings from the two-deep leadership rule can be found in the Guide to Safe Scouting, Scoutmaster's Handbook, Senior Patrol Leader's Handbook, and Patrol Leader's Handbook.

 

However, rumor has it that Wood Badger Wolf Den Leaders on the national "safety" committee are working overtime to reverse that policy in time to mark the official death of Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method this year, as Leadership Development's contribution to the BSA's centennial celebration

 

CalicoPenn,

 

I ain't driving to no campout just to spend the weekend in a stinkn' motel!

 

Patrols that go on patrol are more abstract than we like to believe. I find that if you separate them by 300 feet on Troop campouts (if only once in a while), lights go off in the heads of the gung-ho outdoor Scouts, and (if they can get their parents' permission) they soon start to arrange their own campouts of mixed friends (some in Scouting, others not).

 

When I was a Scout I never thought of asking my Scoutmaster's permission to go on patrol with my friends, and that is true today. As a Scout with a car our "Patrol" drove a hundred miles to camp in the Adirondack High Peaks, and as a Scoutmaster one of my Eagle Scouts drove his "Patrol" 240 miles to get there.

 

If I read Basementdweller's post correctly, his SM is forcing each Patrol to cook for seven adults. In my retirement I'm finding that establishing the Patrol Method as an ASM takes a lot of time and patience

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[CalicoPenn]

Kudu - I was using going to a motel as a metaphor for "get the heck out of the way and out of dodge". It can mean finding a campsite elsewhere and staying out of the way until it's time to drive folks back.

[Stosh]

"Back when I was a kid..." (don'tcha just love it when the old farts start out that way!) I would be out of the house as soon as chores were done and if I wanted supper I had better be back home by dinner time. We had a group of guys and bikes that did everything from swimming, to camping, to building forts, to fishing, to sledding, to skiing, to ice skating, to.... etc. etc. etc.

 

My mother only worried when it got dark. After all I was only 11-12 at the time.

 

Once we got wheels (16 yrs. old) it was camping and road trips from Sat am to Sun pm.

 

My parents loved to camp and went just about every weekend. I did too, but not always with them.

 

Today's youth has to be carpooled everywhere he goes and chaperoned to death any other time. Just because you let your 14 year old child out of your sight for 5 minutes does not mean that they are going to turn into a career criminal. A Scout is Trustworthy, give him a chance to prove it!

 

Stosh

[perdidochas]

Stosh,

 

I don't think most parents are worried that without supervision their kids will become criminals. I think most (if my wife is typical) are worried about them becoming victims of criminals. Yes, I am working on loosening that with my new Tenderfoot, but Mom is much more risk averse than Dad.

[shortridge]

Just food for thought, stirring the pot ...

 

I'd also hypothesize that the anecdotal apparent prevalence of parents on campouts these days may also be tied to the growing distrust or increasing wariness of adults who work closely with children. The sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church and Scouting have certainly contributed to that fear. Parents want to "check things out" first-hand before letting their kids go off out of their sight under the supervision of other adults for extended periods of time - let alone for a whole weekend, two overnights, several hours away from home! They want to examine the equipment, the first-aid situation, study up-close the training, demeanor, style and skill of the adults in charge. And I don't think that's an unreasonable concern.

[Stosh]

Parental paranoia is not a good process in today's society.

 

The parent worries about who the supervising adult is. Then they worry about when their child isn't supervised. They worry about their child's self-esteem and confidence, and they get involved with sabotaging it by interfering in their development.

 

Every tree has some predatory adult waiting behind it, and the further into the woods you go, the more opportunity for their sons to become victims.

 

Stifle their development and these boys will never grow up, be savvy about the world and prepare them for the possibility of dangers down the road. When they're 35 years old, still cowering at home with their parents, then maybe they'll realize the mistake. Until then, these kids don't have a chance. Scouting is their chance.

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

Call it paranoia if you want, but there is a reason why mothers in the animal kingdom keep and eye on their young. Instinct and experience. It is a normal part of life that ensures your young survive and thrive into adulthood and your species continues. I had a much beloved and highly trusted adult (clergy) I'd known throughout my teen years wait until I was just "of age" to try to touch me inappropriately at a camp. I was old enough and confident enough to say no. Had he tried that 3 or 4 or more years earlier, I don't know how I would have handled it. Even at 18, it freaked me out so much that I never told anyone.

 

Checking out the situation and protecting your child is just good parenting. I trust my 17 year old son and I've given him way more leeway over the years than my wife wanted me to. Part of that was because I did grow up in the generation that took off on their bike in the morning and came home at dinner. But I'd rather head something off at the pass than do the damage control on the backside, especially with molestation.

 

Any parent is welcome to come on any campout at anytime. That is our troop policy. BUT, they are made to understand that the adults have their own campsite and cooking and KP duties and they are not to interfere with the patrols. Most campouts over the last 6 years of Boy Scouts, my son and I hardly speak to one another. Heck, he was SPL of his Jambo troop while I was ASM for another Jambo troop. We saw each other in passing.

[BrentAllen]

We operate about the same as SR540. All adults are invited to attend, and I don't care how many attend. We usually have just enough for transportation, and with the church allowing us to use the two 14-passenger GMC Safari's, that usually only means 4 or 5 adults. I have had more adult interest in our backpacking trip to Cumberland Island, which doesn't surprise me.

 

We require any adult going with us to go thru YP and Haz. Weather training. They will also be on the Duty Roster of the Old Fogeys Patrol, helping with the cooking and cleaning. These trips give me a great opportunity to explain Patrol Method and youth leadership to the dads. They see that we camp off by ourselves, and each patrol does their own thing. It is a great time to get them to buy into the program. When they actually see how it works, instead of just hearing about it, they really start to understand it.

[Stosh]

I understand that some parents are cautious, some overly cautious and some down-right paranoid. To some degree every mother bear will protect their cub, but they will also do everything they can to insure that cub matures and is capable of survival. The baby birds are fed by their parents, but soon they are going to get kicked out of the nest and if one hasn't learned to fly, they have to figure it out before hitting the ground.

 

I don't have a problem with parents being at events to observe and learn. Interfering is a whole different subject.

 

I have a policy of any parent that wants to go along may do so but they do so as an observer only. About 90% of the parents don't take me up on that. The boys struggle and fail, then struggle and eventually figure it out. New parents often sat with me at troop meetings and I explained what they were doing/trying to do, and that satisfies most of them.

 

Even the parents that drive boys to events when needed seldom stick around for the actual event. Our summer camp is only an hour and a half drive and parents have no problem driving them up just to turn around and go home, returning on Friday.

 

I had one overly protective dad at his boy's first camporee. We were sitting in the adult area chatting when I noticed he was watching his boy rather closely out of the corner of his eye. Their patrol was struggling with starting their cook fire. As he stood up, I asked him where he was going. He fessed up and said he saw "the boys" struggling. I said either sit down or go home. He was kinda shocked. But standing there he finally smiled and said, you need your cup refilled? They got it figured out and had breakfast just fine on their own.

 

One of the biggest problems I have are the well-meaning parents. They aren't paranoid, they aren't hovering, they are willing to let their boys risk a bit, but it's tough for any parent to see their children struggling. After all, I promote a servant leadership style which means some of my best natural leaders come from servant leadership parents. That's a difficult process for the servant parent to pass on to their children.

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

So in other words Stosh, you operate like most other units.

[Eagledad]

I'm one of those who has complained about parents that are too protective or too ambitious. We can him and haw about all day long but I seem too have either mellowed with age to understand that in much of this, its not a right or wrong issue, it is how well we work with the parents. I have said many times that I learned the hard way that at least 50% of the Scoutmasters job is working with the adults. This is an example of what Im talking about. Our troop never even hinted that a parent was not welcome to come along on a camp out. Personally I think parents who see their kids in action are the ones who buy into the boy run program the fastest. Once they understand it, they do what ever it takes to support it and willingly give you the space you need. Yes, there are the parents who go over the top, but that is where the SM needs to step it up a notch and develop new skills to teach the parents of not only where to stand, but more importantly the why.

 

A lot of problem is that we leaders dont explain our jobs or the program very well. As I got more experienced, I learned better how to justify what every scout can gain while doing a troop activity. I learned to explain just learning how to tie one simple knot improved a scouts character and leadership than from the moment before he started learning that knot. If a boy could only spend one day of his life in a troop program, he will have grown in that one day for life.

 

The adult leaders who tend to get in trouble are the ones who order parents and scouts to fall in step. They use the justification that they are the leader and that is all the justification they need. Its like making the scout wear a uniform without a reason that makes sense for his age and maturity. The scout will follow the adult authority, but he wont respect the absence of wisdom. At some point rebellion follows.

 

That doesnt mean all scout leaders should know everything about scouting or why we do what we do. They just shouldnt justify their actions because they have the authority. In my mind, the SM works for the parent, not the other way around. In reality, we adults have to learn twice as much as the scouts twice as fast just so we can keep up and so that we dont restrict the scouts from growing. Its the adults who dont try to learn that have the most issues with parents.

 

We as leaders really need to quit thinking about good parents and bad parents and instead think of how to deal with the different styles of different parents. Some are rather challenging and may require the style of a different leader to occomplish the goal. Rarely, but it happens that the two will never have a meeting of the minds and a separation is required. But, 99% of the other time, it just a matter of finding a way to get the parent to buy into the program.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry