Question about YPT and the Patrol Method

[Eagle92]

Well this topic is gaining some attention on My Scouting. Apparently this idea has been in the works by the Risk Prevention folks since 2008, after some Scouts caused a major forest fire out west and cost the BSA $6.5 million to settle the lawsuit. The scouts were operating on a patrol activity.

 

 

 

[shortridge]

Eagle92 - I'm a bit confused about the fire you reference. I found mentions of a 2002 fire in Utah involving Scouts with no adult leaders present that resulted in a $6.5 million payout. Is that the one

 

According to two media accounts (links below) of the lawsuit filed afterwards, there were almost 20 Scouts involved - so it wasn't a patrol - who were left under the leadership of 15-year-old "counselors." It also happened in late June on or near a Scout camp.

 

Reading between the lines, to me, it sounds like two CITs were sent out to run a Wilderness Survival overnight and didn't bother to check the fire when they left. I see that as more of a reason for councils to follow BSA rules on camp staffing and the age of counselors than to potentially ban all independent patrol activities.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5359048/

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/660201228/Boy-Scouts-settle-Utah-suit-over-2002-fire.html

[Gwaihir]

So preach the patrol method and preach about scouting is all about giving the boys responsibilty and a scout is trustworthy, but deny them said trust and responsibility where it would be put into practice the most? Awesome. :/

[Eagle92]

Short,

That may be it. When I briefly tried to google the lawsuit, not at work so no time to do a thorough search, I was unable to find it. Also no lexisnexis access at home.

 

If it is a bunch of summer camp CITs, it's not patrol method. PM and G2SS clearly state that parents and SM must give approval. While parents do give approval for scouts to go to summer camp, they are assuming a degree of adult leadership in the MB classes and activities in the form of adult councilors.

[shortridge]

Assuming my guessterpritation is correct and it indeed did involve two CITs -

 

The patrol method involves a natural patrol with its own leader selected by the members, not a motley crew of nearly 20 Scouts led by junior camp staffers who may or may not know the boys well.

[Eagle92]

Agreed. IMHO, and we all know what opinions are like , a patrol that has knows each other, including abilties and weaknesses, has worked together as a cohesive team, and has the KSAs to do soemthingon their own should do so.

 

While it was not a "non-adult" patrol activity, I do remember being 18 and 19 YO, doing completely different activities away form the rest of the troop with my friends in the Leadership Corps (yep we called the older scout patrol LC for a few years after it became Venture Crews until our LC patch supply ran out). Didn't do much "supervising" as I was tagging along for the fun of it. They were in charge and I was going alogn for the ride. And I would feel comfortable with those guys doing those activities with me, or any other adults present. But I admit I would be jealous

[Eagle92]

that second to last sentence should read "WITHOUT ME OR ANY OTHER LEADER PRESENT" ( caps for emphasis of word change.)

 

And i wuld still be jealous of soem of teh activities

[BadenP]

Look cases like this will continue to happen no matter what the reason or rule. Using one specific case as reason to discontinue a practice that has been an integral part of scouting for over 100 years is nothing short of outright stupidity on the part of National. If National is so concerned let them crack down on the adult and youth leaders in every troop to be fully trained and to Be Prepared for any instance. This is not rocket science but National doesn't have a clue as to what to do. So instead they just BAN anything and everything they think is responsible without much forethought or having a proactive instead of a reactive plan to prevent future occurances. WAKE UP NATIONAL!!!

[FScouter]

Yeah, it's always fun to trash "National". Eagle92 threw out a speculation. He is not "National".

[Eagle92]

Read the articles provided and I have questions.

 

#1 It says in one place a troop, and in another it said councilors. So was it a troop outing,or a summer camp class doing their overniter.

 

#2 If a troop outing, where are the leaders as troops do need to have 2 deep leadership.

 

#3 If a summer camp WSMB class, then why did the instructors leave?

 

 

INHO this has NOTHING to do with the patrol method. NOTHING! Yes they were not supervised, but it apppears to be an ad hoc group. A leader TRAINS his patrols, the work together as a team and then the SM and p[arent OK trip.

 

Sorry need to cool off and quit ranting.

[Beavah]

Yah, Eagle92, da case you're referring to was discussed here at some length, eh? It had nothing to do with patrols. It was a Wilderness Survival MB class that was part of a summer camp program, and the youth leaders were camp staff. Also at issue was da camp doin' wilderness survival in full during a burn ban, which was an adult decision.

 

Red Herring.

 

A bit like da mandatory YPT rollout after da Oregon decision. It was incidental to da decision, but it becomes da thing to do when "something should be done!!". Easier than addressing da core issues.

 

Just another part of da current chaos in the Irving office.

 

Beavah

[Gwaihir]

Forgive me for going off topic, but what was "the Oregon decision"?

[Engineer61]

I find this flow of control and responsibilities in BSA a little odd.

 

The Troop's complain about the changes and controls being put in by National, when it is the actions/inactions of the Troop's that push National in to the corner to begin with.

 

The Utah fire wasn't set by anyone at National, but National had to pay for the damages that resulted from the irresponsible actions of the *adults* that failed to provide sufficient oversight of the Scouts.

 

The Oregon case wasn't perpetrated by someone from National, but National had to pay the damages that resulted from the inaction to monitor and act when the child molester was uncovered. National and the so called "Secret Files" was a tremendous blunder with probably has 1000's of Cub Scout parents already deciding to not even consider BSA as an option.

 

You cannot have it both ways...you could not in 1910 and you cannot in 2010.

 

IMO, Scouting is desperate need of serious overhaul to bring the program from 1910 to 2010.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Engineer,

There is a big difference between a group of 20 scouts in a summer camp MB class who are learning skills going out unsupervised and a patrol of 6-10 scouts in a patrol going out unsupervised.

 

The MB class consists of scouts from all over the council, and maybe even OOC units. they may know one or two people in the class from their troop and that's it. The MBCs do not know these kids on a long term basis, doesn't know their KSAs, and generally have no idea. Further the scouts are learning a skill, hence the need for instructors to supervise them. So in effect it isn't unit leaders that failed, but rather the council through its employees, the summer camp staff, that failed.

 

With the patrol method, you have 6-10 scouts who know each other, have worked together as a team, and have been trained together. Their KSAs are a known factor b/c the SM has been watching them over a period of time. As a result the SM should be able to tell if they can handle it or not. Further the parents haev to approve of the activity as well.

 

As for the reason why national had to pay, the BSA is self insured, i.e. membership fees and insurance fees go into the BSA's coffers for events like this.

 

Now in reference to the Oregon case, slightly off subject but I feel a response is in order, the reason for the "Black Book" was that in an age before computers, a central resource was needed to block folks from being leaders who shouldn't. Again people are judgeing an event that took place in the 1980s with 1980s tech by trying to use 2010 tech, and that isn't possible.

[gcnphkr]

I fail to see how requiring untrained-adults-that-don't-want-anything-to-do-with-scouting-but-are-submitting-to-their-bishop's-whim would have prevented the Beaver River Scout Camp fire. Indeed, it is a great example of what happens when you have a bunch of boys that have been nurse maided by untrained-adults-that-don't-want-anything-to-do-with-scouting-but-are-submitting-to-their-bishop's-whim.