Question about YPT and the Patrol Method

[Gwaihir]

Are patrols not allowed to do their own Scoutmaster approved day hikes, events, etc due to the lack of two-deep leadership?

 

Just finished my YPT and it wasn't really addressed.

[FScouter]

Yes, patrols may do their own activities sans adults.

See the Guide to Safe Scouting section "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings"

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx

[shortridge]

Yep, they're allowed.

 

It's pretty vague, but the Guide to Safe Scouting puts it thusly:

 

"Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required."

[Eagle92]

Folks,

A very nasty rumor I've heard on MyScouting is that the next version of G2SS will no longer have the patrol activities exemption. This comes from a former poster on this forum who has lots of knowledge and connections within the national folks.

[Gwaihir]

Thanks for the answer Eagle92. I hope that rumor doesn't become truth.

[Gwaihir]

Thanks for the answer everyone!

[Eagle92]

Me too.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I would be curious to know how many reported incidents (injuries, lost scouts, etc.) have occurred nationally while patrols were operating independantly with SM approval vs. while with a troop and 2 deep leadership.

[Gags]

Also to clarify - I always understood this to be part of the "urban legends" category - youth protection training is basically about not having any one-on-one contact with youth. Two deep leadership is more of a G2SS (Guide to Safe Scouting) requirement. Related, yes, but understandable that it would not come up in a discussion of preventing child abuse. Is a good way to prevent abuse having 2 adults always present? Yes, but the 2 adult rule only applies to outings - you can still have a troop meeting with just one (or none!) adults present.

 

-Gags

[Gwaihir]

Well what promted the question was that YPT made it clear that preventing physical injury as well as preventing sexual abuse was the goal of YPT. So two deep leadership is ONLY for scout outtings?

[Eagle92]

Having problems with PM so I'll post my response here. Yep I am afraid that this may be true b/c national seems to be screwing up royally these day. From simple things like uniforms, i.e. the entire roll out process of the Centennial Uniforms, the new Venturing shirts, and now not having some types of socks in time for Jamboree scouts to get. To the more complicated things like including jargon in advancement, i.e. E.D.G.E. To serious stuff like including management techniques in training instead of leadership and skills instruction ( there is a BIG difference between a leader and a manager). To the two that are the foundation of scouting: taking the outing out of Scouting, i.e. the CSE's comments in reference to camping in the outdoors and the patrol method, which this policy will affect.

 

Now I admit, I did not participate in any patrol activities without adults growing up. I did plan one, sought the SM's approval and was denied. At the time I didn't understand, but in retrospect I do: a 12 y.o. 2nd Class PL and a patrol 10.5 and 11 yo new scouts probably need an adult around just in case. but the option should be there for the older scouts who can handle this.

 

I hope folks at national realize that this proposal is a VERY big detriment to the patrol method, and provides a very slippery slope to the destruction of the Patrol Method. We already have a problem with troops being run as Webelos IIIs.

 

Ok off the soapbox.

[SSScout]

Oh yes, PN (pre nylon) days, we went out sans adult lots of times. Parent drives Scouts out 5 or 6 miles, and says"good luck!" and we hike back. Take us to the bus station, give us fare, we'll see you at 4pm, and we're off for a trip to the Smithsonian.

Drop us off at the theater for a special showing of "KING OF KINGS" (a LONG movie, with intermission!), and come back at a different place around the corner (stop for dinner together).

This issue is, after all, about trust. Can we (they) trust the Scout to act appropriately and not get hurt or lost or damage something or embarrass their parent/Scoutleader/community?

I did not even consider the idea that I wasn't trusted by my folks. Why would they not? All my buddies were about the same that way. Our folks trusted us to not do stupid things like be less than well behaved in public or in the woods. Just so we came home on time with all our appendages in working order.

I think it was the rest of the world they didn't trust. I remember my dad instructing me how to keep my money in one pocket and my wallet in another and my keys in another and how to tell if a pickpocket might be giving me the "once over". And stay together, don't wander off away from your friends! They are depending on you, you know. Safety in numbers! Course, all that was about Urban hikes; the woods had other things to watch out for. That's where the Scout training came in, SM and Senior Scouts and all.

 

Trustworthy goes both ways.

[NJCubScouter]

Gag, your statement about the youth protection guidelines is not correct. No one-on-one contact and two-deep leadership are both part of the youth protection guidelines. Additionally, youth protection is not something separate from the Guide to Safe Scouting -- in fact Chapter I of the G2SS is entitled "Youth Protection and Adult Leadership" and contains the youth protection guidelines. (Or it might be more technically accurate to say that the G2SS is not a separate policy on any subject, but rather is a compilation and guide to BSA policies, guidelines, advice, etc. on a variety of safety-related subjects including youth protection as well as aquatics, climbing, transportation, camping safety etc. etc.)

[Gwaihir]

That's some scary stuff you posted Eagle92.

[BadenP]

Eagle 92

 

I too have heard the same sad news about patrol outings without adults being cut. This is the kind of nonsense that Kudu has been stating for years about the direction the boy scout program was heading. What's next every boy scout must bring his mommy on all outings with him?

 

Now Mazzuca and his cronies are cutting deep into the very foundation of what boy scouting is supposed to be about. IMHO every SM and his troop associates in the country should write a long letter to Mazzuca demanding him to reverse this action. The CSE seems to have forgotten the very principles of scouting set down by Baden Powell 100 years ago and that if National stays the present course of change we could all witness the demise of the scouting program we have known for years in our lifetime.