Interesting process for boy led.

[Stosh]

I had an interesting experience this past weekend. I was selected to be on one of the two Jambo contingents from our council (2nd ASM). We got the boys together for a shakedown weekend and it was my job to organize the troop into leadership and patrols.

 

I took my boys out into a big open field and said, "Okay, organize yourself into a troop. Obviously I was met by a whole herd of "deer in the headlights". I then said, do you want boy-led or adult-led? More "deer in the headlights." I said I didn't do well with adult-led, but I'd give it my best shot.

 

I had all the Eagle rank in one group, all the Life in another, all the Star in a third, and the FC in the rest.

 

I then had all the NYLT boys come to the front of each group.

 

I had only one Eagle and fortunately he was NYLT.

 

I went over to him and asked him if he wanted to be SPL for the troop. He said that position was supposed to be elected. I told him that ideally in a boy-led program that might work, but adult-led means the adult runs the show by fiat. He was the highest ranking, most experienced, best trained. I wanted the best and did he care to take the job. He said yes.

 

Then he was told to pick an ASPL to bunk with him. Either he could pick his best buddy or pick someone that would really be up to the job. (He picked well.) Then he was to pick a QM. Again he selected by experience and training. The QM picked his "buddy" to be Scribe.

 

Then I told him to pick his 4 PL's. He was unsure of the process at this point and then the four selected leaders began to work out who of the remaining boys would do best. They realized that if they picked their buddies from their home troops they would breaking up their troop amongst all the patrols so they began polling the other boys and finally came up with 4 names. Each PL picked his buddy/APL and then they began the process of picking their patrols. Each PL selected a boy from the remaining pool of boys. Each boy that was picked got to pick his buddy. Then the next PL selected a boy and that boy selected his buddy.

 

With the help of the SPL it was decided that the remaining officers would be picked from the patrols. Chaplain's Aid was selected because he already had the POR on his shirt. Same for the OA Rep.

 

When all was said and done the SPL came over to me and said, I wasn't very good at being an adult-led leader. I asked him what he meant by that and he said I only picked him and made him and the boys themselves pick everyone else. I told him I do what I do best and that is run a boy-led program. I then asked him if he was going to do what he did best. He said yes and then went off to organize his PLC. By the end of the day the boys were doing a really great job at getting everything ready to go. The QM got a QM from each patrol to work with him and the Scribe handed me at the end of the day a sheet of paper with all the patrols broken out, who was at what POR. None of this is what was asked for by any adult.

 

At first I wondered how lucky I was to get the one Eagle that happened to end up in my troop. Then I realized, he was an Eagle and luck had nothing to do with it.

 

The mix of the group was 4 troops all of which had high ranking scouts except one (mine) that only had 4 FC scouts. My Chaplain's Aid was selected as Troop Chaplain's Aide and another as patrol QM. I did not know anything about the other boys in the group.

 

I'm thinking that with this little glimpse of boy-led, that just about any troop could be boy-led if given the chance.

 

Stosh

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Great post on how boy-lead can work if given the chance!

 

Could you post periodic updates on how your troop is doing? I think that it might be an interesting lesson for all of us to see how well a boy-lead group functions even though this group was established with a short term focus. They don't have a lot of time to get themselves up to speed before they're going live, putting their plan into action.

 

Stosh, you should be commended for the way that you brought this about. Three big howls!!

[Eagledad]

>>I'm thinking that with this little glimpse of boy-led, that just about any troop could be boy-led if given the chance.

 

Stosh>>

 

Of course, but it takes time to train the adults. (LOL)

 

Im glad you have favorable comments towards using an SPL.

 

Our council ran our JLTC (Before NYLT) much the same way when I was The Council JLT Chair. Between 30 to 40 scouts were gathered in a room the first night and asked to create four patrols and select their Patrol Leader, SPL and troop officers. None of the staff participated and it usually took about 15 minutes. The scouts did not know that they would do this before the course, so 15 always impressed me.

 

The reason 30 to 40 scouts who dont know each other can do this is because they are trained and experienced in the process and functions of a BSA troop. They may not realize it until they are pushed into it, but they do a good job once push comes to shove. Once the scouts had the patrols established and the SPL selected, the SPL directed to lead a PLC meeting for creating the next days course agenda. From getting up to going to bed, the scouts have full control. The only requirements we give them are 6 classes and thee PLC meetings that have to be scheduled in the day. They had to write a new agenda every night for the four day course.

 

Just as Stosh is pointing out, it is quite exciting to watch.

 

Barry

 

[jhankins]

It's great to hear success stories!

 

I moderated a Trainer's EDGE class for our NYLT staff and heard some amazing presentations from the boys. One SPL from his troop did an outstanding job and impressed me to no end. It's great to see our youth in action.

[BrentAllen]

"I took my boys out into a big open field and said, "Okay, organize yourself into a troop. Obviously I was met by a whole herd of "deer in the headlights". I then said, do you want boy-led or adult-led? More "deer in the headlights." I said I didn't do well with adult-led, but I'd give it my best shot."

 

A SM is to provide vision, while coaching and mentoring. That is what you ended up doing. Without the vision, coaching and mentoring, a Troop will most likely fail. If we don't provide that, what are we there for?

[Stosh]

BrentAllen:

 

Oh, contrare! My 3rd ASM (Young adult ASM, stood next to me in this whole process and quietly asked questions about what was going on. Finally after watching it all, he turned to me and said, "Now, what are we supposed to be doing?" I answered him, "As little as possible!"

 

Until the SPL needs a hand at something or asks us to help at something, we just watch."

 

"A SM is to provide vision, while coaching and mentoring. That is what you ended up doing. Without the vision, coaching and mentoring, a Troop will most likely fail."

 

I, as SM, don't need to "provide vision, while coaching and mentoring", because my Eagle SPL is capable of doing it already. As a matter of fact, the truth to your statement is: "a Troop will most likely fail." Yeah, but when it doesn't fail because your boys have that vision as a result of the previous generation of scouts before them, it is a fantastic thing to watch.

 

Stosh

 

Don't hope for miracles, expect them.

[Eagledad]

>>A SM is to provide vision, while coaching and mentoring.

[BrentAllen]

Oh, contrare??

 

Then, what was all this?

 

I had all the Eagle rank in one group, all the Life in another, all the Star in a third, and the FC in the rest.

 

I then had all the NYLT boys come to the front of each group.

 

I had only one Eagle and fortunately he was NYLT.

 

I went over to him and asked him if he wanted to be SPL for the troop. He said that position was supposed to be elected. I told him that ideally in a boy-led program that might work, but adult-led means the adult runs the show by fiat. He was the highest ranking, most experienced, best trained. I wanted the best and did he care to take the job. He said yes.

 

Then he was told to pick an ASPL to bunk with him. Either he could pick his best buddy or pick someone that would really be up to the job. (He picked well.) Then he was to pick a QM. Again he selected by experience and training. The QM picked his "buddy" to be Scribe.

______________________________________________________________________________

 

I see an awful lot of "I"s at the start of those sentences. What do call what you were doing when you were dividing up the ranks, hand-picking the SPL? I would call that coaching. Vision? You wanted the highest rank for you SPL, you didn't want him elected. You gave him direction on selection his ASPL. You had him pick PLs instead of having them elected. Your vision is top-down for forming the Troop. Your vision is boy-led, which they carried out after initial formation. The boys didn't come up with this on their own - where did they get the ideas? They were all "deer in the headlights."

 

Again, if you weren't coaching or mentoring, what were you doing at the beginning of the process?

[Stosh]

I see an awful lot of "I"s at the start of those sentences. What do call what you were doing when you were dividing up the ranks, hand-picking the SPL?

 

>>> I didn't hand pick the SPL. I only asked the highest ranking scout if he wanted to do the job. If he said no, I'd go to the next ranking scout and continue until I got one to say yes.

 

I would call that coaching. Vision?

 

>>> They didn't need any "vision" they all knew that we needed to form up a troop for the Jambo. I was only reiterating the obvious.

 

You wanted the highest rank for you SPL, you didn't want him elected.

 

>>> Had the boy wished to have an election we'd have had an election. I didn't care how I got an SPL, as long as I got one. I thought it expedient and event obvious to everyone in the group to ask the Eagle scout to start with.

 

You gave him direction on selection his ASPL.

 

>>> I think it's rather traditional for the PL's to pick their assistants. That was kinda obvious too.

 

You had him pick PLs instead of having them elected.

 

>>> And he didn't pick them, he gathered up this forming PLC and they decided who the PL's were going to be so it was starting to have what you call my "vision" and they started doing their own thing.

 

Your vision is top-down for forming the Troop. Your vision is boy-led, which they carried out after initial formation. The boys didn't come up with this on their own - where did they get the ideas? They were all "deer in the headlights."

 

>>> It's call empowerment. None of the boys knew the system by which this troop was going to be run. A lot of adults say boy-led only to jerk back the chain when their adult "vision" isn't adhered to. I only empowered one boy the choice and from there on he could continue making choices and eventually he was no longer selecting my options but making choices of his own. I'm sure he was waiting for the chain yank and it never came and in no time at all the troop was formed.

 

I may have randomly put the boys into troops, into ranks, into NYLT/non-NYLT, blond hair, brunett, or whatever kind of grouping I might have thought helpful, but when the SPL made his choices he didn't select by any group, only by skill sets he determined to be best for the troop. PL's were selected from both the Life and Star scouts, some with NYLT and some without.

 

Again, if you weren't coaching or mentoring, what were you doing at the beginning of the process?

 

>>> I gave one boy the opportunity to break the ice and allowed him to move in a direction of his own choosing. If he had said no, then the next boy would get an opportunity, etc.

 

I create opportunities, the vision, direction, and control stays with the boys.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

Interesting.

 

I would have thought that if you wanted the boys to provide the vision and direction, you would have asked more questions of them, instead of giving them directions.

 

For instance, asking them if they wanted to elect their SPL, instead of just selecting him.

 

Asking them if they wanted to elect their PLs, instead of having them picked.

 

Asking them how they wanted to divide up into patrols.

 

I'm not saying you did anything wrong - you just gave more direction than I thought you would have, given your posts over the years.

 

If you want to argue that you didn't give any direction or coaching, then why do they need you there?

 

 

[sailingpj]

"If you want to argue that you didn't give any direction or coaching, then why do they need you there?"

 

He was the starter battery. The machinery provided it's own energy to keep going, but still needs a kick start to get going. He found the person who was most likely to succeed in keeping the machine going once he stepped back and gave that person the option of taking over.

 

He provided the initial kick start then let the machine go where it needed to go.

[OldGreyEagle]

Personally I am begining to doubt the "Lone Wolf" status of our Good Buddy Stosh...

 

being chosen to be a scoutmaster at the National Jamboree fairly reeks of the Good Old Boy Network, you don't get suchpositions (leastwise in my Council) unless you are "plugged in" (Not there is anything wrong with that)

 

So, Stosh, have a great time with the Troop, it should be a lot of fun melding them together

 

(The preceding post has a lot of hyperbole in it and I have nothing but the upmost respect for Stosh, aka jblake47)

 

 

[Stosh]

"If you want to argue that you didn't give any direction or coaching, then why do they need you there?"

 

That's the question I ask myself all the time. The more useless I feel the happier I am. That means my boys are achieving a sense autonomy and independence that allows them the ability to stand on their own two feet.

 

I'm thinking sailingpj might have identified the problem and clarified the situation the best. When those boys walked out into the field it was obvious to everyone that a troop and its leadership needed to be formed up. Who was going to do what and how was it to be accomplished was still up in the air. Some of the boys were probably from adult-led troops where nothing gets done without some adult giving them permission. Then there might have been some boy-led troops where they did everything but who's this adult that is "in charge" and how does he operate. I didn't know the boys and they didn't know me. Only 4 of the FC boys were part of my troop.

 

Okay, so who's going to show their cards first?

 

I chose to act first and I did so by stating the obvious. "Organize yourself into a troop." Duh! Only an idiot wouldn't know that's why we came out here in the field.

 

No answer? Okay, who should be taking the lead? Boys or adults? I asked a question, I did not give direction or take charge. Not knowing my leanings, the boys didn't show their intents by answering. I played my card by saying I was boy-led in my intentions but if I had to adult-lead I could give it a try. Their silence forced someone to take some initiative. I could have waited for one of the boys to speak up, but we didn't have the time.

 

I needed to find out something about the boys, first, their rank/experience in scouting, thus I sorted them out by rank. Then I needed to know the NYLT boys because this was a mandate from national. So I separated them out from the ranks.

 

Without interviewing all the boys, I now had some idea of what I was dealing with.

 

So who's the most experienced, best trained and hopefully the best candidate for taking the lead on this?

 

At this point I haven't directed or communicated anything other than try and decipher what I needed to know to organize the troop.

 

I went to the best candidate and basically asked him to make a choice as to whether or not he was up to the task to pull this together. He said yes, but had he said no, I'd have to dig deeper into my bag of tricks to identify the next best candidate....

 

I do see where any of this has to do with directing, coaching, mentoring anyone or giving them a "vision". I didn't do any of this for them, it was for me to make an educated guess as to the qualifications of this group I was working with.

 

Once I got the initial indication that this experienced scout was willing to work at it, I turned over the choosing/selecting directive to him. Enable him? Jump start him? Maybe, or maybe just gave him permission to start processing the scouts into a troop. The steps I may have suggested were nothing more than reiterating the obvious. You need an assistant, you need a QM, you need a Scribe, you need PL's, etc. Was this directing? Yeah, like telling the driver to drive on the right side of the road.

 

I didn't need him to explain to me why he picked a certain scout for his assistant, he didn't need to explain why he chose a certain scout for QM, but because the QM will buddy/bunk up with the Scribe, I suggested the QM make a choice/decision and take some ownership in the leadership selection process. The SPL then had the ability to follow the suggestion or come up with something on his own, and eventually when it came to PL's he was in that process of working it through on his own criteria and experience.

 

He had permission to move, choose, and decide on how things were to happen and the adult didn't contradict or undermine his authority or decisions.

 

I guess I don't see where any of this indicates any directing, guiding, coaching, or mentoring. Granted, I gave the scouts permission and a shove, and that's about it. I got lucky as to which scout was the best one to shove.

 

OGE: "Personally I am begining to doubt the "Lone Wolf" status of our Good Buddy Stosh...

 

being chosen to be a scoutmaster at the National Jamboree fairly reeks of the Good Old Boy Network, you don't get suchpositions (leastwise in my Council) unless you are "plugged in" (Not there is anything wrong with that)"

 

It's ironic that one could conclude this. I am so out of touch with the GOBN in the council it isn't funny. Boy-led programming is not very popular in our Council and because I insist on it, I'm in the outs with the group. There is one other troop that works hard at boy-led and has adult leadership that is far older than my years with the council. They have gone to Jambos in years past and wanted the troops this year to have a chance at really being boy-led. So they came to me and asked me to put my name in. I figured they didn't have anymore clout than I did, but I did anyway. You have no idea how surprised I was to get the nod.

 

I have the only full-uniformed troop in the Council. That doesn't set well with others and my ASM's and I have endured a few public tongue lashings over the years. My boys don't wish to go to Council camp and have chosen a camp that specializes in patrol-method, boy-led. That of course doesn't bode well for any brownie points in the council.

 

One of my boys came to the meeting last night and announced that all the boys will be manning a food concession stand this Memorial Day weekend all Saturday afternoon. He said it was service project hours and the boys began the process for fighting over the available slots. Service Project? SM didn't know anything about it, hadn't given approval for a service project and was basically kept in the dark on the whole thing until the boy got up at opening flags and made the announcement. The proceeds for the concession stand are to go to the local Veteran's Freedom Flight program.

 

So, do I get bent because I got shuffled off to Buffalo in this whole process? Heck no! My boys are seeking out service projects, signing up, making arrangements, and following through and if the adults aren't onboard, too bad! Love it!

 

It's not that I'm a Lone Wolf, or I march to the beat of a different drummer, it's just that the voices in my head don't always tell me to do the things normal people do.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

Honestly, I'm not really following the debate between Brent and Stosh, but a few thoughts on the nature of Jamboree troops.

 

First, contingent groups like this -- jamboree, Philmont, OA, etc. -- tend to be the cream of the crop. Yeah, there are exceptions, but these are generally the guys who are really into Scouting and want to be there. Hopefully, the performance of the group will reflect that.

 

Even with an all-star group, they are still in the classic "forming" stage. Everyone is trying to be hyper-polite and not step on anyone's toes. Jamboree is different enough that folks are unsure of the rules of engagement. It's a reasonable response to wait for someone to say, "this is regular Boy Scout Troop, you guys get yourselves organized."

 

On the other hand, since the guys really don't know each other, you don't have all the baggage, politics and cliques which adds drag to the organization of a regular troop.

 

Because contingent troops are single-function organizations (getting the group to and from Jamboree or Philmont) I don't have a problem running things slightly different from a regular troop. Advancement generally has little place in a contingent troop, other than indirectly. Youth leadership is another. Because the boys usually don't know each other, the usual processes for voting for or selecting leaders are skewed. Sounds like you got a good group, Stosh, but it's easy to envision groups where the outcome wouldn't be as good.

 

Depending on your part of the country, contingent troops may be assembled of Scouts from an extremely wide geographic area. Consequently, not all troops have the opportunity to meet other than for the shakedown weekend. In such cases, I don't think it is unreasonable for the adults to take a heavier hand than they may otherwise.

 

When it comes to the jamboree itself, we need to recognize why the boys are there -- to enjoy the program. If a patrol is struggling with leadership or personalities and is having a tough time, say, finishing breakfast and cleaning up, I don't have a problem with the adults jumping in and giving them a hand. I don't see the purpose of Jamboree as perfecting your three-pot cleaning method. And you don't necessarily have time to solve all the leadership issues. That's not to say we're going to abdicate those things totally, either. But if a patrol crashes and burns and fixing the issues is going to cost the SPL and ASPL an opportunity to participate in a particular event, I would let them off the hook and handle the problem for them.

 

Just saying.....

 

We now return you to your previously scheduled debate.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)