younger scouts not listening to SPL/ASPL and PL/APL

[Stosh]

"Because I said so..." (parental pushing) and we know how well received that is.

 

Military? Yeah, right you do it or you don't eat.

 

Business? Yep, you don't work, you don't get paid.

 

Now, look at each of these and tell me where the pushing ends and bullying begins....

 

The second someone quits looking over the shoulder of these bullied people, it opens the door to "getting away with something".

 

What teenager covets the day when they can move out of the house and away from the dominance of parental pushing?

 

Unless one has been drafted, re-upping is a pipe-dream.

 

And with the mobility of the work force, it is obvious that employee loyalty is at an all-time low.

 

Is this the kind of leadership one wishes to teach the boys?

 

As I said before, no one really listens to pushy/bossy/bully leaders unless they are threatened to do so.

 

To me, that's not leadership, that's intimidation. Yes, it works, but I don't think it's what the BSA program had in mind when it tries to teach leadership.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

 

And how many of those teenagers finally figure out that their parents weren't so stupid afterall ....once they have been on their own a year or two?

 

 

[evmori]

Sometimes a leader needs to be pushy and bossy. It could be the only way to get a task accomplished. But if that is their only way to lead, I would propose they are not leading at all.

[Scoutfish]

Yeah evmori,

 

I agree. There are certain times when a kid nees some pushing and needs a little bit oof being bossed around.

 

But if it's done constantly, then something isn't right!

 

[SctDad]

There are many things that leaders need to understand. Sometimes a pushy boss is the way to go. Sometime a leader that works with those that they are leading is they way to go.

 

A well defined duty roster will helpl with asigning responsibilities dirung camping activities.

 

Example: You have a scout that does nothing to help. He has the responsibility to get the cooking fire going. He needs to understand that patrol depends on him.

 

At meetings I like what one said with the TwoCubDad Said about having the boy leave the area.

 

Leadeship takes tact. It is something that take time and effort to learn.

[Stosh]

And herein lies the problem. Being "bossy and pushy at times" is not part of leadership, it is part of management. One leads people, they manage tasks. At times when getting the job done is more important than the people doing it and the "leader" resorts to threats and intimidation to get it done, it is really not leadership. An effective leader can get the job done in a far more productive way than threats and intimidation. If one effectively manages people, the tasks get done as a result.

 

Whenever I see the "leadership" resort to such tactics to "get the job done" all it ever says to me is that "leader" does not have the leadership skills to lead people and must resort to whatever tactics necessary, such as bullying and intimidation which like prison, will get the job done and done quickly, but does nothing to promote any leadership development for the bully.

 

It doesn't take teamwork, cooperation, and the welfare of all to bully people, but those are traits and qualities of leadership that will endure in the hearts of followers than the animosity that will endure after being bullied and coerced into doing something.

 

Like I said, bullying and intimidation is not leadership, it's task management and until the leader figures out people management, they will never figure out what leadership is and will remain nothing more than a task management bully.

 

Adults who encourage such bullying probably refuse to acknowledge it and thus promote and encourage it in their minions. Just remember, cracking a whip is far more effective from behind than out front leading where a whip isn't necessary.

 

Stosh

[evmori]

Gotta disagree Josh.

 

Being "bossy and pushy at times" is not part of leadership, it is part of management.

 

It is part of leadership. Sometimes that's what it takes. A good leader will know when being bossy and pushy is needed and when it isn't. The key is knowing the difference.

 

 

[Stosh]

The issue being discussed is not effective management of tasks, it was scouts not listening to other scouts.

 

Compare a scout that wants to do the task with one who is forced to by a bossy leader and I'll show you, a job done either way, but in the end it also teaches two different lessons on whether or not the next time anyone is really going to listen. Being bossy and intimidating may work in the short run, but eventually the younger boys will simply tune out the bossy leaders and the program will have taught nothing to the prospective new bossy/bully leader.

 

Sorry, bossy leaders are nothing more than bullies and have no place in the BSA program. After 40 years of working with kids, I have never taught any of them how to be bossy and bully their peers. Heck, they naturally have figured that process out on their own. Instead I teach them more effective ways to deal with the program and most of them appreciate it and develop skills that don't rely on being bossy and bullying when things don't go exactly the way they wanted them to.

 

The problem described by this tread does not lie in the boys not listening, but in ineffective leadership that boys are tending to ignore. Too often we blame the follower for the problem, when in fact younger boys not listening to SPL/ASPL smacks more of ineffective leadership than poor followership. If the younger boys looked up to these older scouts and sought mentoring from them, they would listen all the time. However, bossy and bullying will eventually turn into "Whaaah, whaaah, whaaaah," very quickly and even I will turn that off quickly.

 

More lessons in leadership and less in management will solve the problem very quickly.

 

Stosh

 

 

[IM_Kathy]

I've enjoyed reading this thread - thank you all for posting your thoughts and for the original poster for asking about it.

 

my son's troop has had some very different SPL styles...

 

we've had a boy that just bossed people around - didn't work too good. attendance dropped and so did the morale of the troop.

 

we've had a boy that while he would yell out "hey guys quiet down now" or making them redo the police line because boys were goofing off, but he was always right there when a boy needed help with something, and in helping them didn't do it for them but rather taught them how to do it so they could do it next time.

 

my son is currently the SPL... he's not a yeller - he's more of a put up the scout sign and wait patiently until boys settle back down. But he did learn from the one I just mentioned in that when he's asked to help he teaches rather than doing it for them. The waiting until boys settle has meant the boys do have less time for games and other things, but so far they don't seem to care. My son just isn't a yeller.

 

And for some reason his troop it is also not always the NSP that acts out the most. Actually our NSP and the one a grade older are better behaved than the next grade. Part of that I think is that they want to be seen as "the big boys" when they are more of a middle child - they also tend to go back and forth each election keeping the same 2 basically as PL and one of them is really the troop clown

 

I'm not sure what the answer really is... I think it's something that each boy should have the opportunity to do and learn things about themselves and the skills they poccess.

[Eagledad]

>>I'm not sure what the answer really is... I think it's something that each boy should have the opportunity to do and learn things about themselves and the skills they poccess.