younger scouts not listening to SPL/ASPL and PL/APL

[Exibar]

How do you guys handle a situation where the younger scouts aren't listening to the older scouts that are in a leadership role?

 

That was a main concern that was brought to my attention last night.

 

I told the older scouts to come to me if they continue to have this problem. It's not just with one scout, it's with a bunch of them. Oddly enough (or maybe not too odd if I think about it)

, it's not the new crossovers they're having issues with, it's the scouts that have been in the troop a couple years now....

 

How should I handle that as ScoutMaster? I would normally have the SPL handle it, but he's one of the scouts that have this issue. What type of consequences should the younger scouts face if they dont' listen to a reasonable request that is made by the SPL or PLs?

 

thanks!

Mike B

 

 

[Eagle92]

This is how it was handled in my old troop growing up. The second to last activity of the troop meeting was the interpatrol game. Interruptions, talking, etc during the instruction period would cause the instructor to stop what they are doing, remind the other scouts that they are wasting their game time, and wait until matter were settled.

 

Once ALL of the instruction was done, then it was patrol corners time, if we had that was planned (usually we had patrol meetings outside of the troop nite). PL would use the same apporach as above.

 

Prior to the game commencing is there were problems, SPL simply did the scout sign, make the comment "You are wasting your game time" and wait.

 

Game time WAS the best part of the meeting. If we finished instructioon early, we got longer game time. If we were late to game time, too bad. Mostly we wer on schedule. Sometimes early, sometimes late. Only once do I remember losing a signifcant amoutn of game time, only had 5 minutes toplay.

[SMT224]

Perhaps this could be the basis of a teachable moment at the PLC or during JLT.

 

In any leadership situation, if the leader is being ignored, there is likely a problem with either the medium or the message. If I were in this situation, I would talk to the PLs about the specifics of the situations where they do not believe they are being listened to, and why they think that. Working this out in a safe situation like the PLC is a good way to develop either a better message or better medium for delivering the message.

 

This is also a good time for a Scoutmasters minute on how a good follower is just as important as a good leader. Specifics in industry, the military, and public service can be cited.

 

[Eagledad]

A quote from the Principles Of Scoutmastership In Relation Io The Boy Development.

 

If a boy is to learn that helping other people is worthwhile, his practice of helping in Scouting must be accompanied by satisfaction and his failure to help must be accompanied by annoyance. The satisfaction or annoyance is greater if it comes from within.

 

Everyone has good responses, but our job is to encourage the Scout to voluntarily change his behavior because he knows it is the right thing to do. Telling him he must change in a Scoutmaster conference or Scoutmaster Minute doesnt typically motivate the boy to make internal decision of change because he doesnt feel the benefit if it.

 

As has been mentioned already, a schedule or agenda does that very well. Our PLC learned to start meetings on time because they got annoyed by complaining parents who got tired of meetings running late. Patrols learned better kitchen habits when they had to cook, eat and clean before troop assembly. Tearing down campsites and packing the trailer went a lot faster (45 minutes) when the scouts missed their junk food stop on the way home to meet the waiting parents. The best motivation for change is annoyance.

 

It is also true that leadership skills have to be improved to improve respect toward leadership, but skills development requires time and practice. Change in behavior from within can be instant.

 

Also we must consider the age. While I consider new scouts to be the most undisciplined scouts in the troop, I remember the 12 and 13 year age of raging hormones. So patience and understanding is also required while waiting for the annoyance to motivate change.

 

The above quote taught me to find ways of annoying the scouts. It requires a lot less work and stress on everyones part in the long run.

 

Barry

 

[Twocubdad]

Examples?

 

If the younger boys are failing to do things at the SPL's request, which could turn into a negative for them, then let it play out. For example, the boys don't get up and get breakfast started which causes them to miss an activity. I would even quietly go about setting up such situations.

 

If the younger boys just won't listen, as in they won't shut up and pay attention during meetings, the SPL should be empowered to remove the offending Scouts. Our junior leaders are trained to go through a series of steps to get guys like this to pay attention. First, is to give the guy "the look." Next, without interrupting your presentation, walk over and stand next to the guys who are talking. Next, just call the boy's name and put a finger to your lips. Finally, ask the catterbox to please wait for you outside. Better yet, the speaker should pause and whisper to one of his ASPLs to discretely ask the offending kid to step outside. As Scoutmaster, I'd be in the corner glaring at the kid pretty strongly, letting him and everyone else know I have the SPLs back.

 

The danger in this, and the thing that is diffcult for junior leaders to pull off, is that the presenter becomes a greater distraction than the kid who was talking. He was bothering the two kids next to him. By stopping to address the problem, the SPL becomes his own biggest interruption. So use it sparingly.

 

The other thing to watch for is that your SPL becomes the troop nag, even if it is just among this group of offending boys. Most of my SPLs have been pretty good at dealing with one problem kid, but when it is a group, the gang feels safety in numbers. They may comply short term, but then they ostracize the SPL. This is especially tough when these guys are part of the SPLs peer group.

 

Stepping in as an adult in the situation is a last resort, because you undermine the SPLs authority, but you need to take care of your SPL. He is still a member of the troop and has to hang with these guys. If that means you take the heat and play "bad cop" that's why you get paid the big bucks.

[Stosh]

Welcome to Leadership 101.

 

I have boys that don't listen to the SM. What makes anyone think they are going to listen to the SPL/ASPL or PL/APL?

 

I had my SPL come to me a while back and complain about just this problem. The boys won't listen and are wasting time. I asked him if at that age he listened or wasted time? He just smiled. I then asked him. Well, what would you wanted the leader to say to help keep you on task at that age? How would you want to be treated? etc.

 

The boys still don't listen some of the time, but it's no where near as bad.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

>>The other thing to watch for is that your SPL becomes the troop nag, even if it is just among this group of offending boys.

[Scoutfish]

Use it to your advantage.

 

While the younger guys aren't listening, in the same normal tone of voice, announce that the next meeting will take place on a different night, and you will be having pizza, burgers or whatever. Then tell each interested person to raise their hand and you will right down their name. Then continue with whatever you are talking about before trhe announcement.

 

See if the offenders show up on the regular night because they didn't pay attention.

 

To further stress the point, while adding a laugh to it, show up a bit early on the normal night, leave a note that says;

 

 

"If you showed up and are reading this note, you obviously didn't pay attention to the the announcement that was that we are at the movies and then will enjoy a nice steak dinner afterwards!" See you next time next week!"

 

[Eagle92]

'Fish

To quote one of my COPE buddies, "You're cruel, I LIKE IT!" ( caps intentional,part of how he says it)

[evmori]

I like that idea Scoutfish! It gets the point across!

[OldGreyEagle]

Exibar, what type of Leadership style do the SPl and ASPL exhibit? DO they order the kids around and treat them as inferiors or do the leaders show respect to the scouts? I think we established that respect is earned, have the youth leadership earned the respect of the younger scouts or is the "ignoring" the result of a quiet rebellion against a leadership style?

 

I mentioned this because you say the newest scouts are not the problem, its the ones who are most familiar with the leadership scouts, perhaps they don't like the leadership style being used.

 

Then again you could have a bunch of unmanageable brats, you will have to observe quietly to assess

[Stosh]

One cannot lead by being bossy and pushy. I have never seen anyone able to lead while pushing from behind.

 

This applies to the adult leadership as well as youth.

 

While leadership is a choice made by an individual, following is a choice also made by an individual. No one is going choose to follow a bully unless forced to. Scouts of this age figure out the system rather quickly.

 

One of my NSP boys wanted to take on Chaplain's Aide and I said okay. Without being prompted or reminded, he has a closing devotion or prayer at every closing flag ceremony. The boys automatically remove headwear when he comes forward and it is total silence while he struggles through (he has speech problems) no matter how long it takes. He is also organizing the camporee this spring and everyone is informed of all the costs, menus, equipment necessary, etc. on a weekly basis and when he's making his report, no one interrupts him. He never tells anyone what to do, but frequently asks for help which is rarely denied. If one chooses to lead and do it right, the others will naturally follow and age, maturity, knowledge, training, etc. have nothing to do with it.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Engineer61]

"One cannot lead by being bossy and pushy. I have never seen anyone able to lead while pushing from behind."

 

Really? Try any branch of the military or any industry at all these days..."you like to eat don't you"...is the phrase of the day.

 

 

[SctDad]

I see some of these problems too with our troop. The PL is trying to plan meals and assignments for the campout and everyone else wants to run around and goof off.

 

I had a PL ask me one time wehn I was guiding him with planning the duty roster and meals. He asked me, I have a hard time planning meals and duties because not everyone shows up. He said that he has some that show up for the campouts without helpling with the planning. I told him "Simple fix, plan your meals with who is here, fill the roster with who is here. Then fill the ones that only show up for camping into the empty slots." He said "Can I do that" I tod him yes, he is the patrol leader and that he has a responsibiity to the patrol. If they complained about the food tel them to show up and help plan. Same with the duty roster.

 

I aso noticed that one day he was the only one that was in uniform. I asked him why his patrol didn't wear them, and he said that he did not know. I said, why don't you have them start wearing them to meetings. His only question, "I can do that?!?!?!"

 

We are going to have a training session soon, but there will always be guidance that is needed.

[Exibar]

All excellent replies and advise. I'm still a new ScoutMaster for the troop, and I'm trying to make things better for the boys (not that the old SM was bad, I just want to improve upon the foundation he gave me). This was the one thing that came up at our PLC.

 

I'm going to re-read the replies and take the best bits and apply them. I did tell the leaders that respect is earned, not given and that it goes both ways. I explained a bit to them about that and they understood.

 

I also found the PowerPoint for the Troop Leader Training, I'm going to give them this training to help them along. Anyone know if there is a "teacher's" script for the course anywhere? If there isn't I can use the PPT slides as an aid for the training.

 

thanks again everyone, this forum certainly has certainly helped me through these early months after being CubMaster for 5 years :-)

 

thanks!

Mike B