How little is too little?

[Buffalo Skipper]

For a Patrol Leader, how little is too little? What do you do when a PL is not doing his job; you counsel him and he does only the absolute least he can to get away with being PL? We have a PL who has attended only 2 campouts since being elected in September, and on one of those he was the only member of his patrol.

 

Advancement is not the point of this discussion. I want to address this from a standpoint of leadership. He feels he has done a reasonable job, and expects to run again next month. Three scouts in his patrol have quit the troop since September, but I do not feel he "ran them off"; and yet he seems to be obliviouis that they are even gone. I do not feel I should support him to run again as PL.

 

What do you do with scouts who just do too little, especially when they do not respond at all to counseling?

[BrentAllen]

BS,

I don't have a direct answer, but one thing I am doing is asking anyone who is interested in running for office to check their calendar and make sure they are going to be able to attend all the events during the next 6 months. If they have other activities that have major conflicts with the Troop calendar, they shouldn't run for office. One of our PLs appointed a Scout as his APL, and that Scout has missed most of our campouts since he was appointed. The APL plays basketball, and is going through confirmation at his church - this was not a good 6-month period for him to serve as APL. We have used this as a lesson for the members of the PLC - make sure your APL is going to be able to be there to support you, or stand in for you.

 

Second, I would suggest you ask the Scout why he thinks he will be re-elected (you may have already done this). What successes can he point to that would make others want him to be their leader? Does he have a picture of success for his patrol? What is his goal for his patrol? If he can't answer those questions with solid answers, hopefully he will see he needs to be a follower instead of a leader, at least for the next term of office.

[Stosh]

Being a PL requires more than just wearing the patch and getting the credit. In order to "get credit" the PL must maintain at least 6 scouts in his patrol, plan activities and functionally lead the boys. If this does not happen, whether they wear the patch, win the election, or whatever, they don't get credit. If the patrol does not attend an activity and the PL is the only one that shows up, he has no one to lead so he cannot fulfill his obligations. Obviously he doesn't know anything about the needs of his patrol members or they would be there. If this situation occurs, he can surely go along on the activity and hang out by himself, but he is obviously not leading anyone, thus no credit. If he wishes to have a patrol to lead, he better get his patrol membership fired up so he can get his credit. If one is elected to be the "coach" on the team and he shows up for the games, and the team stays home, obviously that team isn't going to win any games that season. I don't think anyone is going to consider this person for the Coach of the Year award, nor do I think a winless season is going to work well on his resume. Do the work, get the credit. Simple as that.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Yah, Buffalo, responsibility and leadership aren't things that the lads come with, eh? They have to be learned/taught.

 

My question for yeh is what are you doing for TLT? I think yeh should take a good look at that and try to beef it up. Take 'em on their own mini-high-adventure long weekend campout where yeh make 'em really work on stuff, reinforce skills, and get to see and taste what it feels like when everyone makes a real commitment to each other, workin' hard.

 

Too often "counseling" a scout means an adult goin' "Blah blah blah blah blah..." Nobody really learns that way, and we're just foolin' ourselves when we think it helps. Yeh have to build in 'em the experiences of success and failure, so that they learn the lessons, eh? Yeh can't talk it to 'em. Leadership is too complex a thing.

 

So what are yeh doin' now, and what can you do to really improve your TLT experience?

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad]

What do you mean by support him? In the big world, his misleadership should be enough for the rest of the patrol to not support him back. If they do, then this is an indicator of a bigger problem with the patrol method.

 

As for the scout, did he grow at all in his position? There hopefully is something to salvage there that can be used to push him to reach a little higher in his future scouting experience.

 

I have had some scouts who just don't seem to care or react to counseling of their performance. I remember one such scout who told me during his Eagle COH that he earned the Eagle because I kept pushing him to reach just a little higher. I certainly didn't think that because I remember most of our talks seemed like events of frustration to me. I honestly never felt I reached him. But he did manage to earn the Eagle, I credit his dad.

 

The thing is that scouts who make huge strides in growth tend to overshadow those who make very small steps a little at a time. Leadership may not be your scouts best attribute, but he may also turn into a civic leader one day because his experience in scouting give him someplace to start.

 

I think because you care so much about him you are likely doing ok. Im not sure what you mean by support, but if you just keep presenting him with opportunities that give him those little steps forward, who knows what he might say about you at his Eagle COH.

 

I love this Scouting Stuff.

 

Barry

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

I want to address the specific issue with my troop, but I also want to keep this a broad discussion, bringing in different points of experience from different situations. Thank you all for your contributions.

 

For starters, 2 weeks ago, the PLC created a 3rd patrol from the 2 current patrols. Volunteers stepped out to form the new patrol, and conveniently it created (at least on paper) 3 very balanced patrols in terms of age, rank and experience (read time) in scouting. These new patrols had 3 members each. This was done to give the new patrols time to gel and begin operating as a team. We have 13 confirmed new scouts joining in the next 3 weeks, so this would give these scouts a chance to see 3 functioning patrols to choose which they wanted to join. I wont go into the reasons the PLC decided not to have a NSP this yearthat is not what this discussion is about.

 

All 3 PLs (including our newest) and a few of the other scouts have been through (Kudus) Green Bar training, far more extensive than the regular BSA TLT. TLT will be offered in the spring as a refresher. All those participating, including our wayward PL, attended all sessions of green bar. Counseling is not what I have been doing as a primary response. Training is first, and discussions are what have evolved after that. The PL changed the name of the patrol in September, but only 2 weeks ago made a flag, and they still do not have patrol patches or a patrol yell. They have had no patrol meetings (outside of a troop meeting) and no advancement in the patrol for 6 months.

 

Our troop rules require that in order to run for PL, a scout must be at least 1st Class and have the approval of the SM. This scout is all that is left of a group of scouts who began 2 and 3 years ago. They made a series of poor choices for PL and the patrol(s) suffered, and now all but 2 of these scouts have left (the other transferred to another patrol this year). This scout and one other are both 2nd Class, but are only missing 1 requirement each to be ready for 1st Class. The PLs dad keeps asking me what I am doing to see that he finishes up, and I keep reminding him that I am still waiting for his son finish the requirements and come up to me ready to advance. He has missed 4 outings since September where he would have had the clear opportunity to complete his lacking requirement, and many opportunities in advance of that over the past 2 years. I know that he is involved with both Soccer and Swimming (though he will not meet with his swimming MBC to finish requirements), so I expect his participation over the next few months will be less than stellar. He will also be required to attend 2 or 3 contingent troop campouts for the National Jamboree, at least one of which is in conflict with the Troop camping schedule. He will also miss one of our summer camps while on the NJ, but I do not want to hold the NJ over his head.

 

When elections take place next month, there will likely be 4 new scouts and 3 experienced scouts in the patrol. Assuming the two 2nd Class scouts complete their requirements, we will have 2 eligible scouts to run for PL. The new scouts will have not a clue of his record with the patrol. This makes the election a little bit blind. Next September and March, the extra experienced scouts will make that more practical. It is one of the accepted evils of our current troop dynamic, which we are seeking to change, but that only comes with time.

[dg98adams]

What do you do with scouts who just do too little, especially when they do not respond at all to counseling?

 

If "too little" means they are not working toward meeting the expectations they areed on... then they are NOT meeting expectations.

 

If "too little" is "in your opinion he could do more than just the agreed expectations" then it's your TJLT or job description and maybe his past experience that he is doing what he thinks is needed.

 

 

If they don't respond to counciling by the 2nd month - remove them. This is assuming he gets TJLT when he assumes the position and knows whats expected.

 

If the PL feels he is doing the best he can, and the Patrol members are ok with it, keep counciling and keep them in position. If the Patrol wants a change, let them know they need to voice it before the POR is earned full term and act accordingly.

 

It does sound like your Patrols are sorta small to be functional.

 

 

(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[allangr1024]

You know, leadership is such a subjective requirement. It is very difficult, if not impossible to define in terms of "having been completed". It is the kind of thing that they say about undefinable characteristics: "I cannot tell you what it is, but I can recognize it when I see it."

 

Buffalo Skipper did not think the PL he mentioned did a good job as a leader. But the PL thought he did a decent job. Either one of them is right, or the other. But to these people themselves they are right.

 

Can we define some metrics for the requirement of Leadership? I consider this to be in the same category as "Scout Spirit". What does it take before the requirement is completed? Perhaps he did it if his patrol grew in numbers. (No growth, no leadership). Perhaps he did it if he got all his patrol members out on campouts during his tenure. (No attendance, no leadership). Perhaps he did it if he got all his members to advance to first class. (no advancement, no leadership).

 

I find that when I sit down with a patrol leader, it is most helpful to talk about objectives for the patrol as a whole to shoot for. As objectives for the group, recruitment is good, attendance is good, and advancement is good. I urge the PL to identify the things the patrol can do better, and pursue them. I want him to make some plans to meet the objectives. I check to see if any of the steps he came up with were in fact done. If I can get him to start thinking in these ways, I will have gone a long way to instilling a leadership mentality into him. But there are a hundred things that can cause the objectives to not be met, not the PL's fault.

 

I think the only reason for denying him the requirement sign off is if he stops attending, stops helping patrol members, stops meetings, just stops. If that happens for more than 2 weeks, I will contact him, and determine if we need a new PL.

[Engineer61]

Ok....so maybe this boy is not leadership material, although he believes that (or is told that) he is.

 

If he *is* leadership material, then be frank about his performance. Don't sugar coat it. He'll take it and work on the issues you present.

 

If he *isn't*, well then he'll probably drop the idea of running again, or even drop Scouts.

 

Contrary to popular belief, you cannot teach leadership. You either have the right proportions of knowledge, assertiveness, compassion and awareness, or you don't.

 

 

 

 

 

[E-Mtns]

Have you tried a PL Expectations/Evaluation form that all PL's accept as their required responsibilities. Some troops/patrols try that approach, even add it to their TLT training so the Scouts have plenty of exposure to it before they accept the position. It could be used with all positions of leadership too. There's plenty of forms on the web to see or you can write your own. I suppose the "just enough to qualify" could be clearly spelled out so he would have to meet the patrol's expectations. All this is just an idea, I've never seen it used or tried in any troop I've been involved with.

[Chippewa29]

To answer the question you posed in the subject, too little is what your troop defines it to be. My troop has had the issue off and on of Scouts who take a position, do nothing with it, and are the first ones in line to get their books signed off when they reach the required time needed for a rank.

 

We recently developed criteria that really spells out what is expected for each leadership position. The Scouts are evaluated each month by their youth superior and their adult advisor. If they fall below average in two or more categories (out of the 5-7 for each position), then they are put on "probation" and counseled on how to improve themselves in that area. If they don't improve to at least what we call average, then the Scout is removed from office and receives no credit for his time served.

 

Just laying out in detail the expectations has made a huge difference for us.

[raisinemright]

We had a kid run for PL against my son. They tied twice so it was decided that they would share the duties in six-month segments. My son went first. The kid then disappeared for 5 months to play basketball returning just in time to become PL to a bunch of kids he hardly knew. My son then became APL. He had earned all he needed for STAR while he was PL except the four months of leadership. APL doesn't count. Then, the new PL was back, but deeply disengaged and he missed many meetings or was very late. My son took up the slack but got no leadership credit. This set him back 8 months for STAR. He's nearly 14, so he's in no danger of aging out, but it was very frustrating for him to be the leader but not getting any of the service time credit.

 

Due to a job move, I've had to become separated from the troop (and my family till we can sell our house) but in some conversations, I've suggested that the SM require written commitment from a boy to be seriously active (90+% attendance) to be considered for a key leadership position. There have been too many kids skip out on their responsibilities.