Giving Guy ways to move away from adult-run Troop Method

[Lisabob]

I like that approach, Eagle92. Shows real youth ownership and identity.

 

I think what Guy is working on is a constant struggle for practically all troops (except those that have thrown in the towel and operate as fully adult-led troops). I know that i see this struggle in my son's troop on a fairly regular basis, and sometimes there is progress, sometimes they backslide.

 

One thing I think would be helpful is to bring the committee and SM corp to agreement on one or two very specific areas where they will relinquish specific types of control to the boys. Generalities are easy and breezy to accept, and hard to enforce or live by. ("We're going to be more youth-led!") Specifics give you guidelines and way-markers to help you stick to your path.

 

For example, my son's troop has an adult Quartermaster. I, for the life of me, do not know why we need this. We also have a youth QM. Hey, guess what, the youth QM hardly ever does much - because the adult does it instead, so why bother! And that's the justification given to me for why we have an adult QM (because the youth don't do the job well). We're in between adult QMs right now, so I'm trying to encourage our CC and SM to dump the designation of an adult to what ought to be a boy's role, and to return supervision of the youth POR to the ASPL, where it belongs (according to the SPL handbook). Or, at the very least, to outline specific duties of the adult vs. the youth positions.

 

That might seem like a small step (and it is, and I don't know that they will even buy my idea on this). But if all the adults on the committee and SM corp agree to return this POR to the boys, then that's another move closer to making youth leadership meaningful again. And it is something tangible that we adults can consciously endeavor to do (or really, to NOT do).

 

The other end of moving things back to the boys' leadership is that you have to actively teach and encourage initiative, assertiveness, and creative thinking to the boys. Adults intervene and usurp boys' authority when the boys are passive. Boys are passive when they don't believe they really have the authority to start with, and when they don't have the proper skills (because they've not been developed in the past!) to use their authority.

 

Many times, I've heard from adults that this youth-leadership stuff is a sham because the boys repeatedly demonstrate that they do not WANT authority. And yeah, that happens. Because we encourage it, often unintentionally, by failing to provide the boys with the tools they need to take ownership, and by failing to be patient while they test the waters to see if we mean it. And by failing to teach the boys how to accept the responsibilities that come with leadership and independence.

 

So what ever steps you take toward youth leadership, be sure you put the proper teaching/support mechanisms in place and that you give it enough time for the boys to be able to succeed at it. Which means expecting and allowing for some failures on the way to success.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Guy,

I am in the middle of this process, so I can second much of what others have said; but let me also add something here.

 

1) Educate the Adults. Getting the adult leaders on board is one KEY to this process. We are fortunate here that we have several adults returning to the troop who were scouts 20-25 years ago who remember and understand boy-led methods. This will help us in the coming year as we continue to transition with young scouts.

 

2) Educate the Parents. As stated, this is easier said than done, but it is impossible to accomplish Boy-Led without parental buy in. Even a few parents who think things are not working out to their satisfaction have the potential to upset the program. I have learned to handle the parents fairly well, so this has not been a big issue for us (yet). We are, however, on the "grow," so I/we will work to minimize the impact of this.

 

3) Commitment to Patrol Method. I believe that a troop can be reasonably Boy-Led without strictly following the Patrol Method; but that is not a troop I want to be a leader in. The Patrol Method will greatly (let me rephrase that: GREATLY!) improve the success of a Boy-Led troop. When scouts come to me asking a question, I respond with "Have you asked your Patrol Leader?" (not SPL). If a Patrol Leader asks a question, I ask "Have you asked your Senior PL?" Likewise, I encourage the SPL to generally accept questions from the PLs, and refer scouts back to them. Obviously there are exceptions, but they are rare.

 

Here is where getting the youth buy-in is crucial. If you have older scouts who are more accustomed to an Adult-Led environment, then getting them out of the habit can be tough. We have a couple of new scouts who have recently joined (no cub scout background) and surprisingly, they seem to respond best to this and rarely come to me, but I see them inquiring of their PLs frequently. Fortunatly, most of our older scouts are about to age out, leaving all but 2 active scouts below the age of 13. When the Webelos join this year, I am hoping that this transition will be complete.

 

4) Roses and Thorns is an excellent tool. But beware of the danger of overusing this technique. We had a great scout a few years ago who kept using this at every other meeting and on every campout. It really bored the young scouts and the value of the method was somewhat lost. I try to use this only when needed, and of course, where possible, I work this through the SPL.

 

5) Recognition. Another thing which I do is utilize a number of small recognitions for scouts. We employ a simple knotmaster program, which, though I created and keep an eye on, I ensure that it is run and perpetuated by the scouts, giving them a real sense of ownership of the program (I give a special woggle with a "do a good turn daily knot" woven into it; green to do 6 knots in 2 minutes, black to do the same knots blindfolded in two minutes). Monthly, we present a "Patrol of the Month" ribbon, in part to promote patrol activities and teamwork and to recognize their accomplishments. We do an annual "Big Foot Award" for the best hiker and a "Bent Paddle" for the best water sports/canoer. At our final annual COH, we present a "Scout of the Year" to whom we feel is most deserving. Also at this COH we recognize each scout's accomplishments for the year, showing "meetings attended," "camping nights," and "miles hiked" and "paddled"; this has become one of the highlights of our annual program. I also am big on IMMEDIATE recognition. When a scout turns in a blue card, I present the MB patch to him that meeting, or if we don't have it in stock, at the next one. Ranks are presented immediately as well, but by the SPL. We have a Rank Board and when the rank is presented, in front of the troop the scout goes up to the board and moves his chit (like a swim tag) to the next level. All these things make scouts proud of their accomplishments and encourage others to do more--giving them ownership of their accomplishments.

 

And you must constantly keep an eye on your program. Don't try to continously change or upgrade the program. Be consistent, but be mindful of where trouble may be brewing, without lording over the scouts. When relevant, I take the opportunity to quote either BP or Yoda. Does anyone know where I can find a book of Jedi Quotes? Surprisingly Jedi ideals are not far from those of scouting, and the scouts can relate to Yoda pretty well. Oh and the "Al Bundy" method is great (I've got to remember that one)!

 

So, to sum up, get EVERYONE on board, give the ownership to the scout but most of all, see that it is all FUN. If it isn't fun, your missing the secret ingredient, and what a disappointing stew that would make.

[GKlose]

Thanks LisaBob and BuffaloSkipper -- I've been keeping my eye on posts by both of you for awhile. I've been able to relate to a lot of what has been going on.

 

Guy

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

Indeed, you are at the right window of opportunity. Good hunting on this!!

 

I see, though, the reason: Our youth are intangible assets. Our gear represents property; it's tangible. Adults can see, touch, feel, inspect and criticize it.

 

You'll need a youth member (or two, nothing wrong with having multiple kids have QM in a larger troop) who is committed to learning about maintaining stuff. When you find him, you'll have a winner.

 

[Lisabob]

Yeah, you know it is funny. I was thinking about Eagle92's pet peeves post (why we preach giving youth responsibility and then don't trust or empower our 18-25 year old ASMs). I think it is because many troops DON'T really give youth responsibility - at least not for anything that matters - we simply pretend to do it. Maybe we even fool ourselves into believing it (though I don't know that we fool the youth so much). Your comment about the tangible "stuff" concern (which I think you're right about, btw) is a good example, no? Then, when the youth suddenly cross the magic line into adulthood we can't play that game anymore because the things adults are supposed to be responsible for, actually matter, and we know that we haven't honestly trained these young adults to handle it for real.

 

Or maybe I'm just feeling cynical today.

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

We too have an ASM/Quartermaster. ASM/QM is currently his only function in the troop; he does not attend meetings or campouts, currently. He is also a 4th grade Webelos Leader for his 2nd son, and he is a retired Marine officer. I must commend him that he is very focused on the scouts (QM and asst QM) doing the work. He has shown no inclination to take up the slack , but he has made himself available to advise when needed. He has the perspective, which, in my estimation, is exactly how an ASM should operate. I look forward to a year from now when he crosses over "full time."

 

We are in process of transitioning 2 other leaders who I hope will have the same attidude. If it keeps going like this, it will be like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Lisa posted while I was drafting my reply, so let me add to what she has said. You may have read that I just had my first ESMC the other night. One of the things I discussed with this young man was his scouting experiences. He said that one of the best outings he had a year ago when he went out on a 3 day hike without adults. This was not exactly true; there were two scouts and two 18 year old (Eagle) ASMs, which he still viewed as peers, as his Boy Scout experience to that point had included being in the same patrol as both these young men. Anyway he said it was a watershed experience for him, going out alone with fellow scouts.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[jeff-o]

I can imagine it might be tough to change the method when you already have the older scouts. I haven't had that problem, having started a troop from scratch. Once thing I have started, and plan to do annually, is to have a parents meeting, at least once a year. In that meeting, I stress that this program is for the scouts. I emphasize that its a program for scouts and the scouts decide what they do, and they get to run things.

 

As an interesting aside, at our last meeting, we had a parent with a Webelos scout come for a visit. During patrol meetings, the patrol was to plan their food for the next campout. The patrol is made up of six 12-year olds and one 14-year old. It was total chaos for about 10 minutes. There was lots of yelling, "I want this, I want that." There was literal running in circles. There was much screaming. I just sat back and watched. The parent looked confused, but didn't interfere. And somehow, amazingly, after another 5 minutes, they had a menu.

[Eagle92]

Jeff-o

Gotta love the Patrol Method in action. Green bar Bill said it best, "The patrol method is organized chaos."

[Eagledad]

>>I can imagine it might be tough to change the method when you already have the older scouts.

[GKlose]

Maybe I'm naive, but I'm not concerned so much about the older boys (14-17) in my case. They're pretty much minimal effort, are way-involved in other activities (town-wide sports is very popular where we are, my own sons included), and participate when they can. One aspect is that we are very much advancement-oriented, so most of the older ones do make progress towards Eagle (sliding by on the PoR aspect), and it seems like most have little to do with the troop once they reach that milestone. I don't think I can offer much with that scenario.

 

So, I'm trying to address the leadership and participation of the younger boys.

 

I'll give an example of something I did that was rather ham-handed, and fell flat: we've discussed, in troop committee meetings, how to get patrols more functional. We have non-functional patrols, and outings are sort of thrown together with ad-hoc "patrols", but it really ends up just one large group of everyone camping together (side note: in the last 18 months, major troop purchases have included a large carport/fly, a troop trailer, and a large 3-burner camp chef propane stove -- can you see where this is headed?).

 

Since the committee had been in a habit of forming and reforming patrols annually, based on random criteria, I suggested a two-step approach: reform patrols, putting the active kids together in patrols (so we could dump the ad-hoc patrol thing on outings), and then stick with those patrols (no annual reforming by adults).

 

Another adult (an ASM) shouted at me in the meeting: NO! YOU CAN'T PUT ALL THE GOOD KIDS IN ONE PATROL!

 

My response (not shouting) was: "hey, I'm not talking good or bad, I'm talking about forming a patrol with the kids who typically go on every outing."

 

The funny thing is that when I looked at the issue, it only meant moving a few Scouts, out of the 30 or so on our membership rolls (in fact, two dropped from the troop this last fall), and then combining two smaller groups into a patrol of 7. It would have meant, roughly, two active patrols, one patrol of inactives, and a small "senior" group that wants to act more like a venture patrol anyway (hey are the SPL/ASPL/JASM and a couple of other older scouts).

 

I didn't win that argument: we're still four (smaller) patrols, with inactives interspersed, two dropped, and the "senior patrol" was formed. But I did hear the committee commit that these are now standing patrols. The adults will not reform them (and we talked about the issue of a Scout wanting to switch patrols). We'll see how this goes.

 

I did get another "capitulation", if you want to call it that. Since last year, I felt that patrols had been randomly reformed, and my older son had been pulled from one group where he was comfortable, moved into another group that kind of made no sense (geographically, or friends, or otherwise), I suggested that when patrols were reformed (the "best and final offer", so to speak), we ask that scouts write down their names and the name of a buddy they'd like to be in a patrol with. Most fell along natural school-friend lines, and it made the process a lot easier. I stayed out of it, but I think that there weren't any natural buddy pairs split up.

 

My hope from here is that if a small handful of Scouts want to form their own patrol, we're able to just say "sure, go ahead" and stay away adult meddling. You know, the way it's supposed to be. I'd love to be in the mode where a Scout who needs a PoR, and wants to be a PL, is just able to work it out himself and grow his own patrol.

 

Anyway -- thanks for listening. As always, I really appreciate your insights and input.

 

Guy

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>I suggested that when patrols were reformed (the "best and final offer", so to speak), we ask that scouts write down their names and the name of a buddy they'd like to be in a patrol with.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I spent a good part of my lunch editing my spun thread about a problem patrol, so I missed the last few posts here.

 

Sounds like though we have different dynamics we are dealing with similar problems. Not close enough to merge threads, but close enough that some of our solutions may well overlap.

 

see-- http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=262781