Giving Guy ways to move away from adult-run Troop Method

[John-in-KC]

Well, Guy, you asked ...

 

So here's a thread for you to share where you are, and what your vision is of your destination...

 

One decision you'll have to make is how far the autonomy of the youth runs. There are elements in making the program happen which are adult in nature.

 

So, go for it...

[Stosh]

The very first step in the process is to educate the adults in the process. They all need to be on the same page and equally committed to the change. The biggest problem with boy-led is not the boys, they will adjust quite readily, but with the adults that can't let go of controlling everything to make sure their dear little darlings are successful. I have had many adults comment to me how hard it is to bite one's tongue and stay out of the situation so the boys can work out the situation on their own. They are also the same ones that comment, "That's not the way I would have done it, but it seems to be working out pretty well anyway."

 

The most important item in an adult first aid kit is the tongue depressor.

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

1) Finding the right SM and CC who will be able to control the adults and train the youth to run the program. In reading the 3rd ed. SMHB, I do beleive that a new unit, or one reestablsihing the Patrol method, will need an adult run program for 6-12 months. BUT during that time, the SM needs to be training his leaders y showing them what to do initially, then slowly backing away. Finding the SM who can do that is hard. And finding the right CC who can deal with the complaints about the "organized chaos" of the patrol method amongst parents and leaders who don't get it is also key to supproting the SM.

 

2) EDUCATE THE ADULTS, ESP. FORMER CS LEADERS! (caps for emphasis) no disrespect to CS leaders, hey I am one after all , But I've found the hardest group to get use to the PM are former CS leaders. My theory is that they are so use to being the leader, that they have a hard time letting go. Hopefully I won't fall into that trap.

 

3) Train the youth. Yep they catch on pretty quick, but you still need to train and guide them.

 

4) Let the older scouts do the work. one of my biggest pet peeves, see my thread for the rant, is not letting those older scouts with the KSAs do the work. Maybe we have a hard time keeping the older scouts b/c we don't give them teh responsibility to pass on what they know to the younger scouts?

[Stosh]

I like Eagle92's insight into the adult issues. As a SM their number one job is to constantly work themselves out of a job in a boy-led program. If everyone is looking to the SM for the answers, there's something wrong. He/She must constantly be teaching the boys to do what he/she is being sought out to do. Every boy that turns 18 whether they Eagle or not should be a fully trained SM! If this is not the case, then the SM isn't doing his/her job! BP said that an adult shouldn't be doing anything a scout should be doing assumes that the boy has been trained and supported in those efforts.

 

I have boys asking me questions that relate to being an adult leader in a boy-led program. Just last meeting my Eagle candidate boy commented to me the boys won't listen, won't stay on task, etc. My first comment was "Welcome to adulthood!" Then I asked him if he was that way when he first came into the troop. When he answered in the affirmative, I then asked him what I did to get him to where he was. With a big grin he turned around and went back to working with the boys. He's going to be a great SM some day. Heck, he's 90% there already and he's only 16!

 

My younger boys teach knots, the older boys teach leadership! Yes, I do not expect the boys to meet their advancement requirements, I expect them to go above and beyond every step of the way. I never ask if the boys can tie knots, I ask if they can teach them too. Knowing knots is for the benefit of the boy, teaching them is for the betterment of others, and that's leadership. If as an adult I expect that of the boys, eventually they come to expect it of themselves, too. That's what boy-led is all about.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Eagle92]

An aside. When I taught SM Specific, I would always incorporate the Ideal SM position, aka the "Al Bundy:" SM on a camping trip, sitting around the campfire in his camp chair drinking coffee and only asking ithe SPL if things are coming along nicely with a few questions. Then goes back to drinking coffee.

 

Sorry but it's funnier when seen.

[Eagledad]

Well done on every point Eagle92.

 

As for an easy start to the program, issue the Patrol Leader Handbook to all the working adults and scouts and isse the SPL Handbook to the youth leaders and ASMs. They are simple, basic, easy to read and keeps Everyone on the same page of the program.

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

One quick thought...

 

Something the youth will have to develop in this conversion is an ethic of initiative. When the adults are giving away the ownership, the youth have to be willing to accept it.

 

Expect to use "thorns and roses" a LOT...

[Stosh]

What's your best thorn John?

 

I use the comment, "If you do it your way, you'll get what you want, if you expect me to do it, I'll do it my way and you'll have to take your chances." So far I haven't had any takers.

 

Stosh

[John-in-KC]

One time a patrol left the cast skillet out overnight (this was a COLD winter's camp, I think the overnight was +5 or so. Next day, they try to do sausage. That skillet never got hot enough under their LW stove; we finally let them use the one big burner we grownups had brought after we saw one of them trying to eat raw pork.

 

Appropriate food, appropriate gear.

[Stosh]

Okay, John, here's the $64,000 question....

 

If the fry pan was to be kept warm, which kid should have slept with it in his sleeping bag instead of leaving it out in the cold?

 

Stosh

[Mike F]

Moving toward more boy-run is a constant process of adjusting and re-adjusting -- more art than science. Coaching and mentoring the youth leadership - esp the SPL - is the number one job for the SM.

 

And there's a re-set after every election/selection cycle.

 

In general, we work with our new senior boy leadership (SPL and sometimes ASPLs) away from other boys every week to help them understand what they need to do, give them ideas, get them talking about challenges, etc. Most SPLs soon catch on and take off running. A few struggle the whole way through, but they all grow from the experience and that's why we get paid the big bucks.

 

If guys aren't used to having SPL and other youth running the meeting, coach SPL before the meeting so he's prepared, then stand fairly close to him while he nervously leads things. As he gains confidence over time, start working your way to the back of the room and eventually into the next room.

 

In ways, it's a lot like teaching a kid to ride a bike without training wheels. At first, it takes a firm hand to keep them upright and out of the ditch. As they start to get the hang of it, you can relax your grip. Eventually they give a shout and peddle away on their own faster then you can run. You still shout instructions from the sidewalk for a bit, then go inside for a quick prayer and cup of coffee.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

[John-in-KC]

Coals of the campfire, Stosh...

 

On winter camps, 2 adults rotated through the night keeping a heating fire going ... we're a tad south of you, and for our kids, 10 is cold, and 0 is **** cold.

[red feather]

Stosh probaly said it best, but the concept of scout led is an important one and I have to add my 2 cents.

 

Key is getting the adults and PARENTS to buy into the idea that the scouts can plan the program, execute, and learn from the plan. New scout parents will be the big hurdle.

 

Sounds easy, but it is not. The troop that I serve used to be a mix of adult led and some scout led and it took 3 yrs to get it to scout led. Biggest thing to learn was the answer to questions. "Ask the Senior Patrol Leader." A scoutmaster and adult leaders have to learn how to be "unhelpful" at times.

 

The troop has grown from 20 or so to over 50 with the last meeting having 17 uniformed and 'mostly' trained adults , 49 scouts and 4 visitors looking for a troop. The adults are there to provide adult consultation and cover any admin tasks needed ( training a replacement I hope),they all have troop jobs with BOR's and two deep responsibilities as a part of them. Some commitee work is also done during meetings. The scouts held patrol meetings and worked on advancement, next overnight and ideas for the next spring camporee. (all the SPL and PLC planning)

 

The troops Owl Patrol is currently planning the councils spring camporee. The Owls are the adult patrol and are a great resource for the troop and are very active as an adult patrol but do not intrude on the functions of the youth patrols. (lots of coffe gets consumed )

 

The culture of the troop has to be developed over time. The scouts who grew up in the last system had trouble adapting. The younger and new scouts knew nothing other than scout led. Problems? You bet and still have the scars from biting the tongue.

 

Next is training the new adults, get them trained and believing in the idea of scout led. If you as SM set the example of expectation for both the youth and adult, they will with time buy in (the adults and parents will be the biggest problem to overcome). I say scout led not boy led since a boy cannot lead a troop but a scout can. Slim distinction but an important one. Remember, develop the troops culture.

 

Set the bar of expectation high and set back and wonder if you did not set the bar high enough and then raise it, remember the idea of the culture of the troop that you are creating.

 

The troop that I serve pushes Trustworthy, A Scout Is, and personal responsibility. The troop provides the opportunites for advancement, merit badges etc but does not provide them outside of what the PLC decides. Set the bar high and watch them reach it. And the raise it.

 

yis

sorry for the soap box, but I do get excited about this program

red feather

 

 

[GKlose]

Wow, thanks guys! I got busy yesterday, so I'm only getting back to the forum now. I had no idea that this thread was spun until just a few minutes ago.

 

In some ways, I wish I could tell all the stories I've collected over the last 18 months. You guys would cringe for sure. And to be honest, there are times when I've felt like the easiest thing to do would be to go find another troop. Hmmm, which would it be, the Webelos III troop or the other adult-led troop-method troop in town? :-). (or to a troop in an adjacent town?)

 

Anyway, I appreciate all of your responses.

 

Training hasn't been the problem in our troop (I think we have direct-contact adults 100% trained), but applying the training, putting the training into practice, has been.

 

I've tried to be careful -- I'm not trying to cram my vision of success down the troop's throat, but I've tried to make suggestions, and to arrange things, for the betterment of the troop. Maybe sometimes by asking pesky questions ("so when are we going to have our next committee meeting?" or -- and I forget how I phrased this -- "how about we start up the PLC again?").

 

But things are looking up lately. In the parent thread, I think I mentioned that we have a new dad that came in the last year. He's an Eagle Scout and he was more than happy to take over the advancement chair. I've already planted a bug in his ear about some of these troop-method versus patrol-method things we're seeing, and I'm pretty sure we're on the same page.

 

So thanks again, everyone -- I really appreciate it --

 

Guy

 

[Eagle92]

Red Feather also gave some great advice. Esp. setting the bar high. One thing I would add is that once it is set, you reinforce it anytime you can, and get the youth to as well.

 

When I joined my old troop, the bar was set as part of the Investiture Ceremony with the comment upon being given the troop necker " Many scouts have worn this neckerchief before you and none had disgraced it, do not be the first." (ok I still get the goosebumps still even writing this line.) And whenever new PLs or SPL were elected, the outgoing person would always make the comment about not screwing up HIS patrol or troop.