Trying to help a patrol leader

[T4AsstScoutmaster]

Greetings All!

 

I've been lurking on the forum here for a couple of months. I'm a recent Asst Scoutmaster. We have a patrol comprised of new scouts; there are 5 boys, all in 6th Grade and crossed over about 7 months ago.

 

They're as messy, confused and risk-adverse as any new scouts would be.

 

I've been noticing, though, a recurring trend for the boys in the patrol to ignore their patrol leader. The patrol leader is a kid they've known for years from cub scouts. He's a good kid, very conscientious and new to leadership.

 

Let me get specific. For a month the patrol has known they need to present a scout skill at a troop meeting. The patrol leader asked for volunteers to present different elements of the skill. They all declined, so he assigned skills to teams of two boys. Last evening, in their patrol corner, he finds out no one has worked on the skill and they're all informing him they have no intention of working on their skills. As ASM, I briefly sat and explained how important teamwork is. The kids gave me a blank stare. Later, the patrol leader nearly burst into tears, saying no one wants to do anything. This was only one example. Attendance at campouts is spotty, personal responsibility is minimal, etc.

 

So, what kind of advice do you all have for motivating a patrol to listen to their patrol leader and to man up to the various tasks and responsibilities in scouting?

 

I am working with the patrol leader to advance his leadership skills. He's also 11 years old. But he can't lead if no one will follow.

[kenk]

I am just echoing this thought from an earlier reply to a different topic that was a big Ah-Ha experience for me as an ASM ....

 

Nothing changes behavior quite so much as another youth - especially an older well-respected youth - telling a boy that what they did was uncool and not acceptable.

 

You, an adult, can lecture them 'till you're blue in the face and they don't really care what YOU think. They DO care what the older boys think of them.

 

Instead of guiding the patrol leader on how to deal with it, instead guide the SPL, ASPL, and Troop Guides on how to deal with it. I'll bet they (the older Scouts) thought the whole thing (non-pepped Scouts) made the younger Scouts look kind of foolish.

 

Just my $0.02. Hope it helps.

[SctDad]

I can sympathiize (sp) with you on this. We have a young troop and the older boys have GONE and are not looking like they are returning.

 

I was talking with our PL two weeks ago and asked himm if they had started working on the things that they needed to get ready for the Advanc-o-ree. He said that they had not yet. So I asked him what they needed for the event. He was able to tell me: Duty roster, menu, shopping list. I asked him if he had a way to print them off and he said that he would look into it.

 

He seems like he can do the job, if the youth would follow himi too. But the troop also needs an active SPL. The troop have about doubled in size and there are a lot of new youth. I think that it is going to be a time to make new patrols. There is enough for at least two patrols if not a third. So we are going to look at things like that.

 

 

[shortridge]

Agree with kenk. It sounds like this patrol needs an older Scout mentor to help them along. If there's no Guide, the SPL should appoint one, or take on the role himself. Even just taking a seat behind the PL at a patrol meeting, silently observing, can be a big boost - both in the PL's confidence and in the response from the patrol members.

 

The older Scout should resist the temptation to rip into the patrol for failing to do its job, however. That will only breed resistance and undermine the PL. A simple "Geez, guys, aren't you ready yet? How many weeks have you been getting ready?" from a respected boy can do wonders.

 

If the PL is on the verge of tears, he also needs some encouragement and serious bucking up. He may just need some coaching on the right phrases to say when confronted with recalcitrant Scouts.

[T4AsstScoutmaster]

Kenk, that's a good observation.

 

I think the PL is mostly embarrassed by the patrol's lack of participation. He's been trying to keep a lot of this from the SM and other leaders. He does tell his patrol if they don't perform, they'll look foolish. From a peer, that doesn't work. I have figured out that 11 year old boys are absolutely risk-averse. They do not want to try something for risk of failing. Instead, they'll choose to not participate, crack jokes and disrupt.

 

Our SPL is a solid and commanding kid. He wouldn't have a problem stepping in.

 

I feel for the patrol leader. He's advancing quicker than the others and, while he's obviously a deer in the headlights about a lot of aspects of being a Boy Scout, he'll risk a lot to achieve his goals. He's a good kid and it would be easier if the other guys had each other's backs.

[T4AsstScoutmaster]

"If the PL is on the verge of tears, he also needs some encouragement and serious bucking up. He may just need some coaching on the right phrases to say when confronted with recalcitrant Scouts."

 

Agreed. What are some correct responses he could use?

 

I've heard him use all kinds of approaches, like "I can't do this by myself", "We'll all take small pieces, so no one's doing too much", "this'll be fun" and, up to and including "If no one will help, then I'm quitting".

[Stosh]

I guess it all depends on what kind of "leader" one wishes to promote for this boy. First of all he cares about doing a good job and this is the first requirement of a good leader. However the method chosen for him is delegation, a recipe for disaster for a newbie. Of course is buddies aren't going to do anything. Why should they. If they sit around long enough some adult will take over and things will be back on their schedule, adult led.

 

Instead, have the PL boy do ALL the "work". Teach him how to teach, how to take care of others, and once he excells at that, all his buddies will catch on that his advancement and stardom is something they have taken a pass on and are left behind. If this takes off, I'm betting within 3-5 months the other boys will be clamoring to get to teach and not have the PL be the only one that gets the perks.

 

The PL will be one step ahead of the others in developing skills to be a great PL, a fantastic TG, Instructor and eventually an SPL that takes care of his boys. They will follow and once the boy demonstrates leadership success by example, the others WILL FOLLOW that as well! This PL is trying to develop skills to motivate others. It isn't going to work, these boys need to be motivated from within, not one of their own. They are motivated at this point only by someone that can "punish" them for not doing what they are told. But once they see their PL getting all the attention and succeeding at what he's doing, getting all the training and accolades, the others will wake up.

 

Be sure that when the boy starts out, he should not be responsible for discipline of his boys, only their education. Have an ASM sit in on his training sessions so he can offer up suggestions after the session and maintain order while he is teaching. The ASM also is a little of a cheerleader, comfort blanket for the boy as he spreads his wings.

 

There's nothing worse for a group of boys that one of them gets singled out for special attention and the others get left sitting on their thumbs. One of their main goals right now is to insure none of their group gets such attention, especially the guy that got stuck with the PL patch.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Nothing changes behavior quite so much as another youth - especially an older well-respected youth - telling a boy that what they did was uncool and not acceptable.

 

Yah, this is why I've never cared for da notion of an 11-year-old Patrol Leader for a NSP, eh?

 

Not only are yeh putting a kid who does not have the necessary skills into a role which demands those skills, you're settin' him up for failure on da social side. Eleven year olds aren't ready to "stand out" from da group, and even if they are, their peers aren't ready for it and will undermine it.

 

Jblake's idea is a good one, but it's pretty "high-risk," eh? Takes some finesse to pull off.

 

Introducing one or more older scout Troop Guides is a good idea, but only if yeh have one or two boys who the younger fellows really admire and who have da right personality to pull it off.

 

You're right that young lads are "risk adverse". For that reason it often helps if yeh break 'em up so that they're working one-on-one or one-on-two with older scouts away from da rest of their peers. That way they aren't threatened by standing out from their group and can't retreat into da disruptive avoidance behavior. "Divide and conquer" has its benefits, eh?

 

Mixed-age patrols have several benefits when dealin' with this sort of thing for a bunch of the above reasons. Yeh might think about them. They also have their own downsides, of course.

 

I'm a bit more interested/concerned about da overall lack of attendance you report from this crowd of first-year fellows. Part of makin' NSP's work is a good ASM-NSP who has the right personality and energy level for that gang, and who goes after such lost sheep. Perhaps you don't have the right person in that ASM role?

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

(Sorry about the length.)

 

I had a post done earlier, but my computer ate it. Anyway, in the interim, Stosh said much of what I was going to say.

 

To re-emphasize, the best way for your PL to lead is through example - by becoming a master of skills and holding his authority by virtue of knowledge and ability, not from simply having a patch on his sleeve.

 

As far as "things to say," it really does depend on the specific group of boys. You have to find out why they're behaving this way in order to "fix them." Is there a ringleader who really wants to be in charge himself? The PL and SPL can pull him aside and have a heart-to-heart, laying it on the table. Are they bored with the "basic" skills and want to do something cool - maybe skiing or survival? Your youth leadership team can help them map out a plan to master the skills to get to that point.

 

Since this bunch of boys has been together from Cubs, I'd also talk with their former den leaders, and see if this type of behavior has manifested itself before. If they've been like this from Tigers on, with one or two serious Scouts and the rest cracking up, it's going to be a much tougher nut to crack.

 

Your PL also has a very tough road ahead personally. If he hasn't already, he's about to learn a very tough lesson - that a group will not respect empty threats. If he's gone to the "I'm quitting" well, and they called his bluff, they're not going to take his future pronouncements seriously.

 

Small-group dynamics are a challenge. Small groups of boys at this age could take a master's in psychology to figure out! Your SPL can boost the PL's spirits by reminding him that if he can work through this and come out on top, every other job he holds in Scouting is going to be a piece of cake.

 

Beavah has a good point. Dispersing the New Scout Patrol into "regular" patrols may be an option to look at. It's the Scouting equivalent of the teacher making the classroom troublemakers sit in separate rows.

 

If that's not an option you want to pursue, one way to motivate them is through group challenges - pitting the patrols against each other in a very tough, high-stakes skills competition. Perhaps if they know they're going to be matched against the older Scouts in a contest with real bragging rights or awards, they'll step up to the plate.

[kenk]

"Yah, this is why I've never cared for da notion of an 11-year-old Patrol Leader for a NSP, eh?

 

Not only are yeh putting a kid who does not have the necessary skills into a role which demands those skills, you're settin' him up for failure on da social side. Eleven year olds aren't ready to "stand out" from da group, and even if they are, their peers aren't ready for it and will undermine it. "

 

Beavah, do you prefer to have a wider mix if ages in patrols (as opposed to the NSP) so the older Scouts can mentor & lead the younger Scouts? We've been trying to run with a "Venture patrol" with older Scouts, and "regular" patrols with 1st & 2nd years (11 & 12 year olds and one 13 year old, but a mix of ranks) and they are really struggling with leadership and experience. Do you think we should have left the 14 year olds in with the regular patrols? Our troop is struggling with silly menus and boys not knowing how to organize food buying, cook meals, and cleanup after meals. We assigned troop guides, but they are in the venture patrol and usually not all that involved. I'm not sure the troop guide thing is working well.

[eghiglie]

When I first went to SM school the teacher swore that NSP was the only way to go.

 

My observation over the past years is that the boys in the new scout patrol elect the tallest 11 yo kid, regardless of whether or not he is qualified. Most were not. The NSP just ran around playing tag. After a few times of this, I took an older boy in the troop and appointed him the first PL for a three months.

 

The NSP was told he was in charge and because he had senior rank would be able to sign or not sign a book. The PL would then appoint boys to present something at a meeting, many would present as directed. This worked out great, but not prefect.

 

Every month though there is a scout who comes to me and claims the PL 'hates me' and won't sign the book off on something. I chat with the PL and find out the boy did not do the requirement at all or very badly. I give the boy a chance to demonstrate the item and this proves that the PL was right. I give the boy a few tips to learn it and have them come back when they can do it.

 

The NSP really didn't work for us, we now split the boys amongst the three patrols.

 

What I noticed is that boy maturity takes longer now than 10 years ago for some reason and 11 yo's don't/won't and refuse to told what to do by another 11 yo.

 

Good luck

 

 

[Stosh]

I'm a firm believer in a "modified" NSP system. But with that said, the PL is not a new scout unless the patrol insists on it and commits to working with him. Of course these situations require a strong TG and cooperating Instructor to assist the boy with his duties.

 

Mixed patrols cause all kinds of age/skill differences that both hold back the older boys from taking on more advanced activities and often times overwhelm the new scout who's trying to get advancement while keeping up with his patrol partners.

 

This mentoring/coaching of younger scouts is fantastic in the ideal sense, but in a practical sense often goes lacking. A good TG/PL combo who really want to do the job right can out-pace any mixed patrol situation in giving appropriate attention to like-minded boys as they begin their adventure in scouting. It is always recommended to the NSP that they seek an older boy from the troop that they would like to ask to be their PL. Often times it's the boy that has gone out and recruited the NSP that they select because they have bonded with him in the recruiting process.

 

Our leadership in the patrols is by consensus/assignment by the SM. We have no "elections" or "terms". If a boy wants the job and he is function in his duties he stays there as long as he wishes, or until the patrol decides otherwise and to date, they have yet to replace a PL that is doing a good job for them.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Beavah]

Beavah, do you prefer to have a wider mix if ages in patrols (as opposed to the NSP) so the older Scouts can mentor & lead the younger Scouts?

 

Yah, I work with a lot of different troops, eh? I try not to have preferences .

 

I think da system that works is whichever one the adults in a unit can wrap their brains around and feel invested in, and then get da kids to buy into. So I've seen lots of systems work great some places and fail in others. What I really believe is that if you're havin' lots of issues and problems and you don't like the way it "feels", you should change! Try somethin' new. And then keep tryin', until you're gettin' what you want for the boys in your program.

 

Now I reckon there are a few general rules, eh? I think with rare exceptions that by and large an 11-year-old isn't ready to lead a group of same-age peers, and they aren't ready to accept leadership from a peer. So for NSP, success or failure really depends on the TGs and ASMs. Whether or not they have the title, they are the Patrol Leader for that gang. Some units give 'em the PL title, which I think works well. Others rotate that title among boys so they get a mini-introduction to troop operations. Some appoint an 11-year-old (da "natural" gang leader) and then groom him to be the PL when the TG moves on. Some follow da BSA bit and do elections and then try to do the same grooming thing with whoever is elected. Yeh can make any of 'em work, though I think da elections bit is the hardest. But to make 'em work, yeh really have to recognize that the TGs/Instructors (or ASM-NSP in some units) are the Patrol Leaders in everything but name.

 

The alternative is da system the BSA used until relatively recently, where patrols were mixed-age, and older boys in each patrol were da leaders/PLC/Leadership Corps/etc. After all, a lad isn't really ready to camp on his own until he's a First Class Scout, eh? He's not goin' to be able to start leadin' until he can at least camp on his own, plan a weekend's meals and all that. Older boys as PLs in a mixed age patrol I reckon is a more "natural" thing, eh? Younger lads care about what the older boys think, and follow their lead and example. They can learn da way boys learn best - by watching and mimicking rather than by "instruction." And it helps da second year guys grow up a lot when they have younger fellows that they have to impress . Also you can really have patrol competitions, and I think patrol competitions are a grand thing for gettin' boys to really work hard.

 

That system also has its general rules, eh? It takes some time and some forthright adult example and conversation to build da kind of "service ethic" that makes older boys care about younger boys (patrol competitions also help, since da performance of the first year fellows can make or break yeh!). If yeh don't build that service ethic, da mixed-age thing can become a hierarchy of privilege, where the older boys get all da privileges and assign all the first year boys the ugliest chores. Short step from always being assigned K.P. to outright hazing and such. If patrols get way out of balance and da "service ethic" ain't quite strong enough, this can feel like "babysitting" to da older fellows. Yeh have to work to make PLC stuff age-appropriate for older scouts (perhaps includin' some higher adventure), but yeh also have da advantage that the PLC really functions like a PLC because its members are all capable older fellows who really can run things themselves. Yeh aren't just "faking it" with 7th grade PL's da way I've seen lots of troops do.

 

So if you're not likin' what you're gettin', kenk, try something different. Might be that mixed-age patrols with older scout PLs is an option for your unit that you should think about.

 

Beavah

 

 

[evmori]

Sounds like this patrol doesn't want to be told what to do by "one of their own" And that deer in the headlights look you got is pretty normal.

 

Sounds like it is time for the PL to go to the SPL & maybe the SM for advise.

 

Then it could be the rest of the patrol just isn't mature enough regardless of age.

[sbemis1]

My son's troop has the new scout patrol, but their first PL is the outgoing SPL. The new boys usually think this is pretty cool.