Parents on Troop Campouts

[Stosh]

Sorry, but G2SS quotes and rules have nothing to do with it and do not apply.

 

G2SS does not apply to the relationship between parent and child.

 

At a parent's discression, they can take on whitewater canoeing, sailboating, rafting on the Colorado, or sea kayaking with their non-swimmer son anytime they wish.

 

So, once again if a non-trained, uncertified, observing parent and son are in a canoe/raft/sailboat/kayak and wish to go the same places as the rest of the troop, it can happen.

 

Otherwise, is it G2SS/BSA policy to tell parents and their sons what they can or can't do? I'm thinking not, too.

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

We typically take 40+ boys on an outing. If we don't have some parents coming along, then we won't be able to transport the boys. That being said, we make it clear to parents beginning with Webelos Den visits that we are a boy led troop and adults stay out of the way. No sashaying over to the patrol site to see how Timmy is doing or barking orders at them to get tents down and the trailer loaded. Adults provide transportation. Once at camp, they function just like a patrol and set up their own patrol site and cook and eat in their patrol. The SM and ASM's have direct contact with the SPL, ASPL,s TG's and PL's when needed during the outing. Them's the rules and many parents along for the first time see it in action and learn by the example of the parents who have been along for years. What to do when little Timmy decides to visit the adult area to "ask mom a question"? First off, he has to stop outside the adult area and ask permission to enter just like the adults do at the boy's patrol sites. Then Timmy is usually handled by an adult other than their parent as to why he needs to ask mom a question. This isn't done in a mean manner. It is done in a friendly manner to help the boy understand the boundaries and to go back and "ask his PL". Works very well for us. When we do have the occasional parent "go off the reservation", a friendly discussion about the boy led patrol method usually gets them back on track.

 

Our unit simply can't function without enough parents willing to go on outings to provide transportation. That being said, we don't want or need 40 boys and 40 adults on an outing. We need how many we need to cover transportation only.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[BrentAllen]

Huh? You just said the parent was an observer on a scout activity. And that parents aren't allowed to participate in the activities of your Troop. You then said a non-swimmer Scout can go canoeing as long as it is with their parent. To quote you, "They are then required, per BSA rules." But now you say BSA rules DON'T apply? Which BSA rules were you talking about, the required ones?

 

Is this is your way of getting around BSA safety rules and regs?

[Knot Head]

Our troop won't let a non swimmer (adult or scout) attend a water activity. What they do on their own time is their business, but on a scout trip if you can't swim you can't sign up.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, jblake, I'm as confused as BA, eh?

 

A nonswimmer should be in a canoe with a trained lifeguard, not a parent. That's da BSA rules/guidelines. Bein' with a parent is nice and all, but if the parent isn't a strong canoeist they're goin' to end up in trouble. Perhaps deadly trouble if da water is high and strong enough.

 

That's to my mind da biggest downside of inexperienced parents on trips, eh? Yeh have to take care of 'em, yeh can't just treat them as non-participant observers. If it's cold and rainin', and they get cold and wet, it's a problem for da whole group. If they can't swim or don't know how to paddle or ski or backpack, yeh have to deal with it. If they're out of shape, yeh have to deal with it. And like some folks said, if they don't "get" the scoutin' program, yeh have to deal with it.

 

That can suck down a lot of adult time, eh? So much so that havin' 'em out is a net negative. They take more than they're able to give.

 

So gettin' back to mikecummings157's question, I think what most troops really want and need is some selected parent involvement, eh? Where you encourage folks to come out on some easy stuff and teach 'em da Scouting Way, and then you select da ones who look like they'll train up to be decent assistant leaders and encourage/invite 'em on more stuff. Da rest get steered to committee and in-town support positions.

 

Beavah

 

[mikecummings157]

Wow, a lot of great feedback.

 

In response to some of the questions, my thought on getting parents to come along is to start the process of exposing them to what we do and get more buy in, with the goal of recruiting the good ones into a position fitting their talents. We do have an active coomittee, but there aren't a lot of members who actually have boys in the troop anymore. The fresh blood and ideas would be great.

 

I have also observed a direct corrleation between parent involvement and boy involvement/retention.

[Stosh]

Depends on why one would want to have it as their goal to exclude scouts.

 

Suppose Mr. A comes to an activity on his sailboat to teach the troop sailing MB for the weekend. His son Joey comes with him, he's not a swimmer but a member of the troop. As SM do you tell Mr. A that his kid can't ride in the sailboat for the rest of the weekend?

 

Yep, I can see this situation turning ugly rather quickly when the SM pulls out his BSA G2SS and starts quoting chapter and verse.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Yah, there can be unusual cases, eh?

 

Though I must admit that da notion of a non-swimmer goin' out on a small sailboat in a big lake is a bit frightenin'. I've had non-swimmer adults out on a bigger keelboat where I had both a motor and the conditions were light, but even then yeh have to keep a close eye out.

 

There are some G2SS guidelines that yeh have to adapt to da circumstances. At da same time, there are some that fall solidly in the realm of real safety and just plain common sense. Non-swimmers on light sailing craft, swiftwater, or open water is somewhere I reckon most prudent and intelligent folks don't want to go. Like PFDs, even in those few cases where they might not be strictly required, there's da question of developin' good habits and good examples.

 

What parents do on their own time is their business, of course. They might allow their sons to fire handguns or sail without a PFD or do Leave-Big-Trace campin'. But when we're runnin' a unit outing, I reckon the participants should buy into da unit's expectations.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

There are those who might question my "safety" but never my safety record. I have done Civil War reenacting for 11 years with my crew and have NEVER had a problem because we all know one accident and the crew is defunct. Our boys are trained way beyond the expectations of the hobby and have been known to walk off the field when they feel the other units in the area are unsafe.

 

I work as an adminstrative assistant to the safety department of a multi-billion dollar international company and and have been described as anal in my approach to many issues including G2SS. But after 40 years of working with kids and their parents there are often compromises available that can "make it happen" for boys in special circumstances.

 

The boys called off our last canoe outing because the temp was in the low 50's and the wind was blowing and we would have been in areas where if the canoe rolled, even a strong swimmer would be in trouble with hyperthermia. We toured museums instead.

 

Although G2SS doesn't state it, my non-swimmers wear PDF's when shore-line fish. All participants wear PDF's any time they are doing an afloat activity and within 10' of the water's edge. Every canoe must have extra paddle and rescue throw or they don't go. The adults carry block and tackle to use if necessary. Yes, I've had to use it after rescuing the boy, the tackle is necessary to rescue the canoe.

 

G2SS is but the beginning of safety expectations in specific situations and one must be constantly aware of the dangers all around to minimize them. If I take a parent and a non-swimming son, they are fully warned that the liability for such actions is in the parent's hands. If parents don't accept that expectation the boy doesn't go. But the boy doesn't go because of the parent, not the scout troop or some G2SS rule.

 

So for all those out there that need their shorts torqued, yes, I have sold military assault rifles to children. :-) G2SS doesn't forbid it so far as I have been able to tell. (It sounds so much better when you leave off the details...)

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

Could we get some music here, to go with all this dancing?

 

Let me make sure I understand this.

 

You have an adult registered as a Small-Boat Sailing MB Counselor, who is going to get upset if you ask him to set a good example and follow the lessons he is teaching?

 

Req. 2 Before doing the following requirements, successfully complete the BSA swimmer test.

 

Req. 4a. Discuss the nine points of the BSA Safety Afloat plan.

 

How can he teach that to the boys, and then turn around and not follow what he teaches?

 

As SM, I absolutely tell him that since this is a Scouting activity, we follow the safety rules. He needs to set a great example for the Scouts. If he can't handle that, I don't need him as a counselor. If the counselor is worth his salt, and he is aware of the program he is teaching, it shouldn't be a problem. He can take his son sailing any other weekend of the year, when he isn't conducting a weekend class for the Scouts.

[Stosh]

Yep, not a problem, the MB counselor and his son go off sailing and the troop can go home. Works for me. Sure hope they can find another MB counselor someday. There's always summer camp if they offer the MB. Would be great, however, if all MB counselors are screened to the nth degree, but alas they aren't always. I can site many examples where there's been things over looked throughout the years of my experience alone, especially all the MB counselors at summer camp that aren't 18. Go figure.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

I freely admit that setting high standards and running a quality program can be tough. When I tell the parents that is what I'm going to do, I do it.

[Beavah]

. All participants wear PDF's any time they are doing an afloat activity and within 10' of the water's edge.

 

Yah, do yeh have to get a license from Adobe for that?

 

I think we remote folks always have to defer to da judgment of the people at the site, eh? Lots of judgment calls just depend on da local conditions, the quality of equipment, the experience of the boys and adults and such. No way to assess all that by remote.

 

Sometimes, though, an outsider's perspective can be helpful in providin' a check to our thinkin'. Keeps our egos from writin' checks which our programs can't cash.

 

So just be aware, jblake, that yeh seem to be goin' places where other folks with a lot of kids-and-water experience are uncomfortable goin'. And it seems you're bein' pushed there by some parents rather than really makin' the call from a program perspective. I reckon that's at least worth some serious reflection.

 

Also a good example for mikecummings157 of the downside of parent involvement, eh? Parents who aren't buyin' in can push yeh to compromise on things that you otherwise wouldn't compromise on.

 

Beavah

 

[eghiglie]

You are very lucky to have extra adults wanting to come on outings.

 

Being a small troop of 5 boys, with 3 of them being raised with out dads, I'm grateful for any parent that comes. Usually the 7 or 8 of us eat together, but other than that the adults and kids do their own thing.

 

In the past two years weve had to cancel 4 or 5 outings a year because only 1 adult (me) would sign up for a trip.

 

If our Troop gets larger we will apply some of these suggestions!

 

 

[Stosh]

LOL! Yeah, I have my boys strap on their laptops when they go near the water!

 

These issues that involve pushing the envelop a bit is discussed extensively with the parents and through communication and consensus the logistics of making it happen for the boys is reached. If we are having a water activity and the boy can't swim, a discussion is held with the boy and his parent as to what that means for him. We challenge the boy to get lessons, the parents hear this and make the arrangements on the non-scout side, etc. The boy is not banned from the activity, but if a parent comes along and takes responsibility for the boy for that part of the activity, that decision is reached between the boy and his parent. As SM I reserve the right to veto that if the parent can't swim either! I may cut corners, but I do not cut safety. If a parent sails all over every lake in the nation with his non-swimmer son I have a difficult problem with forbidding him to do so within a Scout activity. I have known many fishermen, boaters, etc. that can't swim and rely on their PFD's for safety, the same as climber who relay on their gear to scale mountains. Each issue must be totally evaluated on a one by one basis with an understanding that just because Joey and his dad did it last time doesn't mean that Peter and his dad can do it this time. Circumstances vary and all the boys and parents are aware of this as an underlying safety concern.

 

If I applied every safety principle in the book in every situation, my boys would go nowhere ever. Putting 7 boys in my van to drive to a museum is as dangerous as any other activity out there.

 

As I have mentioned previously, there have been many occasions when right in the middle of the activity, safety concerns arise and the activity is over right then and there!

 

Stosh