Define a “Boy Led Troop”

[Stosh]

Yes, if all the activities are limited to the availability of the SM and an ASM, the troop is not going anywhere and doing anything without them. It's not a price worth paying, nor is it an option worth living with. 1) The two leaders will quickly burn out and 2) many options of the boys will be limited. It's time for the Committee to investigate more adults available to assist with outings and rides. 2 ASM's can do just as well as the SM/ASM combo. As a matter of fact an ASM/parent works too. A roster of available adults for the boys to contact will go a long way to help them with THEIR activities.

 

I have 4 weeks of vacation, next year two go to National Jambo, one goes to Summer camp and one goes to my church youth's mission trip. Doesn't leave me any time for myself. As I look over this, it never occurred to me that any of these activites would need to be cancelled because I wasn't available. I'm not that indespensible. There are always others out there that are able to help.

 

Stosh

[nolesrule]

When I was a scout, my troop had a long-standing policy/tradition of having our monthly activities on the third weekend of the month. That was instituted before my time, so I don't know if it was a PLC or an adult decision. Regardless, it guaranteed that there would be available adults every time and it provided for the dates on the annual calendar to be set in stone at the annual planning meeting.

 

 

Besides, the average vehicle only has 5 seatbelts, so unless you only have 8 scouts or adults that have vehicles with third-row seating, the two adult minimum won't really be enough. And down here in the south, the proliferation of single-bench pickups make it even harder.... I guess there is one plus to the SUV craze earlier in the decade, as people were buying those instead of pickups.

[Eagledad]

Some folks just cant get past their own world to see the big picture. There is a lot more room for different ideas and methods than just their one size fits all type of scouting. Or maybe they just dont have good personal skills, who knows? Still, you have to be somewhat picky on the suggestions you choose because Ive done this long enough to recognize that some folks style of forcing scouts to be boy run is not the same as guiding them to grow boy run.

 

I personally think you are doing a pretty good job Eagle732 and both the parents and scouts should be proud to have you as their troop adult leaders. What I think some of the folks are saying is dont get stagnant and be satisfied with the program you have, keep it growing. Boys change, so your program has to change. Not a lot at once and not to fast, but your troop should have some differences next year because your boys are more mature.

 

Guide it so that it keeps becoming more Boy Run next week, next month and next year. If you dont, then your 16 year old scouts may get bored with a 14 year old program. Dont be afraid to constantly evaluate your troop and make changes so that there is a place for all the scouts. Its not easy, but very rewarding.

 

There are a lot of good ideas here (and not so good), just keep asking and then pick the good ones that fit your style of leadership and your troops program. I think for most of us, we just want to help you love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[Beavah]

Backin' up a bit here...

 

Elections seem to be mostly about who wants to do the job, not necessarily the best person for the job.Lately the youngest patrol member gets PL. I'm willing to allow most any change they would like to try.

 

Yah, that happens sometimes, eh?

 

When it does, it's a sign that da PL position doesn't carry any prestige in your program in a way that satisfies older boys, but that being a PL does involve a lot of work. So you're usin' da PLs well for da chores of runnin' events, but not givin' 'em what they need in terms of respect and fun.

 

Consider mixin' some age-appropriate fun into PLC meetings. Planning, dinner, & a movie. Havin' a PLC only outing that's challengin'. Takin' some PLC members out on a challengin' mountain bike ride just because it's a nice Sunday. Most important, though, is da personal attention and respect yeh show them as an adult. In the thick of the work it's easy to focus on the tasks and chores, eh? Yeh have to force yourself to find the time to look at and talk with the young man as a friend and peer. It's that leaven of Adult Association that lads crave... "I'm a co-leader with Mr. Eagle". That's what makes 'em want to do the work of plannin' and being a leader alongside you.

 

Otherwise being a PL is just doin' chores. And yeh always try to get your younger brother to do your chores, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[sandspur]

OK, define our terms.

 

Boy Led is great, but that does not translate to Boy controlled

The adults are there for a reason.

 

My take: Let the scouts lead. Let them make as many decisions as they can, allow them to fail in small things as a learning tool. BUT, we are there to make sure they do not fail in the BIG things. We can nudge them back on course, keep them safe, step in to suggest the SPL does something that needs doing. But do not pretend we are not also in leadership roles.

 

I will not hesitate to step in with a carefully worded suggestion that is in effect a directive if it is needed to keep the ship off the reef. If we have to make it a directive and not a suggestion, we will, but only when required.

 

Put it another way: Allow the boys to make decisions, but make sure certain choices are off the table. Let the troop march up to the edge of the swamp, but not in to it.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Stosh,

 

Do you always work in such black and white, absolute terms? You assumed an awful lot from my post. Just so you know, our boys plan their entire calendar. It usually goes like this. They list what they want to do for the coming year. Then they list where they would like to go. Then they match up places they want to go with the things they want to do. Then they match up a month to a place/activity. Kind of silly to go swimming in January or cold weather camping in August. Now they have their basic plan on paper. This is where the SM works with them to select the dates for each month. Of the 60 boys on our roster, at least a dozen are going to National Jamboree along with myself and another ASM. We would most likely schedule our July outing around that so it doesn't conflict. Our troop does a high adventure trip to Philmont, Northern Tier or a self-desiged trip each year. We typically schedule around those dates as we have one to two crews including adult leaders gone on those trips. We support OA and we try not to schedule our outings when there are Ordeals or Fellowships. I think you get the picture.

 

I never said that we cancel a trip. The only time we cancel a trip is when the SM decides there is too much ice on the road and it has to be pretty thick for him to cancel even then. what I said is that it takes a good number of vehicles to transport a large troop and if the adults are not available, the trip can't happen. That is why the SM works with the PLC on scheduling dates during the annual planning meeting. It's common sense and doesn't detract at all from being boy-led. In fact, it facilitates successful boy-led.

[SMT224]

I've found this waxes and wanes depending on the Scout Leaders - especially the SPL and members of the PLC. I've seen some boys embrace the SPL fully, conducting Troop meetings and providing significant leadership planning and implementing outings.

 

On the other hand, some boys have a much harder time with leadership and some really don't seem to care. Some come in enthusiastic, then get involved in a sport or other outside activity and never end up following though all their big plans. Several years ago a number of the older Scouts planned two high adventure winter camping trips with great fanfare. But by the time January and February arrived, they were busy with other things and were not around for any of the implementation.

 

It is often very difficult to decide where to allow a failure and where to step in and make sure things happen. For me, the litmus test is often based on how many Scouts will be affected by the failure - a few Scouts? One Patrol? The entire Troop? What will be the ultimate impact? Are there any constructive lessons to be learned? Or will it end up with boys quitting because of their frustration?

 

We allowed two failures this year in our fledgling high-adventure Patrol. Did they learn their lesson? Had to tell.. we'll see what happens next time. The bottom line is that the adventure they planned did not happen because of lack of follow up and a "what-ever" attitude among the Patrol leadership. It's my impression that the leaders didn't learn anything and don't really care. For the Patrol members, it's a different story - they are pissed things they wanted to happen didn't, and I'm hearing mutterings of "...when I'm the PL, we're going, no matter what..." Music to my ears!

 

On the Troop level, we are currently experiencing a big failure because of money. As in the lack of. And this is an event the Scouts were really looking forward to, but is not happening because we simply do not have the $$ in the Treasurer to support it. All this because of a significant lack of interest or enthusiasm at our last fund raiser. The SPL was especially unmotivated, and his attitude permeated the rank and file. Now we have a new SPL, and he sees a clear connection. With out prompting, he is leading a coalition to earn the necessary $$ for next year's event. At our last PLC, he, with PL support, levied a minimal sales quota for each Scout. We'll what happens with that!

 

Eagle732, it sounds like you are setting up the right conditions (despite the COR!). Step back and watch, but be ready to step in if necessary (good luck in knowing when!). Don't be surprised if it sometimes doesn't work! This way you'll be all the more delighted on those occasions when the Scouts really do pull it off!

 

[Eagle732]

jb47, I've asked the committee for an additional ASM or two, there is no one. I've got 14 years of unit leader experience, I think I'll know when I need a break. When you have most of your Scouts coming from single (mostly mom only) families you don't get much help on camping trips. As far as limiting the boy's options, before I was SM not one of these boys ever went canoeing and kayaking, backpacking, or on bike hikes. The only thing they did was car camp because it's easy and doesn't take a lot of imagination or planning by the boys or adults. I guess if I'm limiting their experiences then the committee needs to find someone else to take the job.

[Stosh]

Yes I do think in black and white. My boys know which way he wind blows and, yes, they can take my advise or reject it. Not a problem. Grey areas cause confusion and difficulties and the boys seem to prefer black and white from the adult leadership suggestions. They at least know where the road is.

 

As far as not having enough adults, that's the Committee's problem and they should be expected to handle it. The SM needs resources to do the program, the Committee provides it. If the SM can't go and the activity is cancelled, it needs to be reported to the Committee immediately so the problem can be corrected by them in a timely manner.

 

As far as long-range planning goes, it starts within the patrols, not the PLC. Each patrol is responsible for their annual plan. Then these plans are taken to the PLC where the details are worked out. All patrols want to go to camp? PLC works with the patrols and decides which camp and which week would work out best. If a consensus can't be worked and a patrol wants a different camp and week and they have 2 adults that will go with them, they go there.

 

When a PLC decides and dictates this camp, this week and a patrol doesn't wish to go there, they simply stay home, find some other activity and eventually if this happens often enough, leaves the troop. Thus you have the older boys not wanting to go back to the council camp for the 5th time in a row that would prefer either going somewhere else or not going at all? I don't think putting these boys in a position of deciding not going at all is a good idea. With an age span of 11-17 in the troop why is it always the larger group (new boys) that always dictate to the older boys what's happening. Ever wonder why the older boys leave? I don't.

 

Now take it the other way around, the older boys dictating to the younger boys and then we scratch our heads and wonder why the new boys don't make it through their first and/or second years. I don't.

 

Young boys want to go to camp? Older boys want to do BWCA? CC is notified of this and it's their responsibility to come up with 4 adults. Everyone's got their responsibilities and both can happen. ASM in charge of new scouts and a parent take the young boys to camp. SM and Activity ASM go with the older boys to BWCA. I don't see the problem. And yes, single moms can go to summer camp just as easily as dads. I took a mom with me this past weekend on whitewater canoeing this past weekend. She was more experienced than most of the rest, brought "mom" treats and was treated like royalty. She didn't have to set her tent up, didn't have to cook and she had a great time. There are people out there who would love to be asked. Get your CC off his butt and start building connections and if there are no resources in the troop, start looking outside of it. It's part of their job! (This mom was not a mom of any of the boys in the troop! But she spoiled them anyway!)

 

There are lot of people out there that would love to help the troop that don't have boys in the program. Ask them!

 

What's the lesson we give if we tell them it can't be done! If adults are going to support a boy-led program, then just do it. I don't expect failure from my boys and my adults either. It's for the boys, make it happen!

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[BrentAllen]

I find it interesting that we have one thread over in adult training, where the discussion revolves around finding SMs with enough outdoor experience and training to take Scouts into the woods. Then we have this thread, where CCs should be able to find 10 different adults with the experience and training to take their Troop's 5 patrols on separate camping trips each month.

 

Stosh,

Does this stuff you talk about ever actually happen in your Troop, or is it all just going to happen some day? Did you actually have older boys go on a HA trip while the younger boys went to camp? Do you have a single patrol go on a separate trip from the rest of the Troop? I would like to hear real life experiences.

 

From the BSA program, the PLC is made up of representatives from the patrols - the PLs. The PLC isn't some autonimous body that just dictates to the Troop.

[Eagledad]

>>>>I've got 14 years of unit leader experience,

[Stosh]

It doesn't take trained adults to take the NSP to summer camp.

 

Most troops don't have 5 patrols so needing 10 adults isn't a problem but I know of a lot of troops of 20 that have 10 adults.

 

Yes, I had boys attend two different summer camps this summer.

 

If one is going to support the boys' program, they had better be prepared do whatever it takes to make it happen.

 

If one is using the patrol method they had better be prepared to have a patrol go off and do something different from the troop. I do believe this is the ultimate goal.

 

I don't feel I need to justify my boys' program, it works for them. It may not work in other troops, and that's fine. However, if some troop is having problems, my posts are just another option tossed into the ring of consideration. There are those out there that find out that beating one's head against the wall is quite painful and trying something else might be what they need. Thus I post as I do. Take it or leave it. I don't worry about it either way.

 

Stosh

 

P.S. I have 19 years unit leader experience, some of it as dual.

 

4 years Cub Pack Advancement Committee Member

2 years Webelos Den Leader

13 years ASM adult led troop

2 years SM boy led troop

11 years Crew Advisor

 

So, yes, most of what I post comes from life experience. If you wish, I could also add the various other non-BSA youth leadership positions I have had that would bring that total to 41 years..... ;-)(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[BrentAllen]

No, it doesn't take trained leaders to take a Troop to Summer Camp. I don't know that I would let my son go on a trip without trained and experienced leaders attending - summer camp or otherwise. Parents wouldn't let their sons go to a school with untrained teachers, but some have no problem with letting their sons disappear into the woods for a week or a weekend with untrained and inexperienced leaders. Makes no sense to me.

 

As SM, I see it as my job and obigation to go on the trips. I haven't missed on yet, and don't plan on it for the next 12 months. When the PLC held the planning conference, I asked them not to schedule a trip on one weekend, in October. I was volunteered to co-chair a council event, but other than that, I'm pretty much available. The PLC had no problem with the request. We need some Scouts to help with the event, so some will help out.

 

The PLs questioned their patrols for the events and trips they wanted to do. The PLs printed out schedules for school, band, church, athletic teams, etc. and brought them to the meeting. I printed out the council calendar and brought it. The boys came up with the trips and put them on the calendar, checking the other calendars for conflicts. They added COHs and officer elections. They decided which trips would be appropriate to invite Webelos IIs to attend. Compared to last year, they did a very good job and things went pretty smoothly. The Mellow Mushroom pizza helped, I think.

[Eagle732]

EDad, what is new to me is coming into a unit that is so beat down it's ready to fold and then trying to bring it back to life. I think one of the reasons why COR is so bent against the boy led troop is because he has seen the ugly side of it. When I first came to our troop it was boy led for sure. The boys made all the decisions. The car camped every month, they had a scam they had going, adults take boys to a campground where they get to do anything they want, non of it having anything to do with Scouting. No need for a program, no need for planning, no need for the Ideas of Scouting. The troop even got kicked out of campgrounds and was constantly getting in other trouble. Our meeting place is a 2 story building, the boys met upstairs, no adults were even allowed on the 2nd floor. If an adult would ask a Scout to do something you would get a look like you had three heads! Webelos would come to visit the troop and never come back. Boys living within walking distance to the meeting place would travel 15 miles to join other troops. I was asked to take over and make changes, it's been hard but we are making progress. Two years latter, we still suffer from the bad reputation we earned, it's tough to overcome something like that.

[Eagledad]

>>Two years latter, we still suffer from the bad reputation we earned, it's tough to overcome something like that.