throwing up my hands - VENT

[SSScout]

Bear with me,I just read thru this thread just now. I heard some good observations and ideas. Here's a plan, and, mind, it would take some advance negotiations and discussions amongst everybody: TC, PLC, interested adults (you know who you are). Alot of back porch meetings, but if you have a Troop worth saving, might be worth it. Firstly, The Scoutmaster, with the support of the Troop Committee sets the program, yes?

So the SM comes up and announces the establishment of the "Trail Draggers" Patrol, and here 'tis: and all the ASMs and other adult hangers on step forward. Now, the SM announces a Patrol competition for camping, hiking etc. here are the rules, here are the prizes, and here's when we're going to The Big Trek.

They tell you to TEACH, DEMONSTRATE, and TRUST, meaning the boys.

So, the SM with his PLC and Troop Guides become the Teachers. The TD Patrol becomes the Demonstrators. They camp the camp and hike the hike. BUT THEY ARE SEPERATE FROM THE BOYS.

Now the hard part. The Patrols go about Scouting, with adult "watchers" or whatever you want to title them, but these "watchers" do not participate except by invitation of the Scouts OR if something really dumb and dangerous needs to be prevented. I think we all understand why I said this is the hard part.

What Lisabob is describing is alot of parents that (1) want "quality time" with junior that maybe they didn't get earlier on and (2) want to relive and/or create the good Scout times they had (or lacked) waaay back when.

Just gotta make the TD Patrol realize that they have to set and demonstrate the Scout way, NOT the (alleged) ADULT way. No adult beverages, frinstance.

 

If the TD patrol is true to it's calling, the boys WILL try out their techniques and cuisine and will wonder why those old goats are on the trail so early when we're still cleaning the breakfast pots.

 

Could the TD Patrol win the Patrol Competition? Are they even in the running? Depends. Mostly on how charitable the Troop leadership is and how proud the Boy Patrols are. But if you have that large an adult group that wishes to be that active, it could work.

 

Bad things usually happen when energy is too tightly contained. Good things can happen when energy is rightly directed.

[BulldogBlitz]

glad (or sad) to see that i'm not the only one in that situation. the last troop committee meeting, i suggested that we are an adult troop and the boys are along for the ride. at that point, it was suggested to me that the boy scouts are no longer the way i recall and that asking untrained parents to stand aside would be very wrong.

 

things don't change overnight, but maybe this one little ember of a compromise is what is needed for you to get things turned.

[Nike]

Our troop sends a crew to Philmont just about every year. Their prep hikes are explicitly Philmont prep hikes and only those going or alternates can participate. The rest of the troop activities are open to everyone. Maybe what Lisabob's troop needs are explicit trek training hikes where everyone agrees on the objective and also some more relaxed exploring trips.

[HICO_Eagle]

When you are preparing for a big expedition like a week-long trek, how do you do that? It is one thing to say "have practice hikes" and another to have a sense of what those practice hikes are like? Are your practice hikes tightly controlled or are they just hikes for the sake of getting miles under the belt?

 

Yes, we do practice hikes or practice campouts. Usually, the hike or campout is very clearly advertised as such with specific goals. Those goals may be specific skills like low-impact camping or simply to get used to trekking X miles with 40 pounds on their back.

 

You seem to have glommed onto one of your troop's problems yourself. The adults are not communicating their goals or why the various plans are necessary (or at least germane) to those objectives. This creates ill will and resistance among the Scouts because they don't know why they are being driven the way they are.

[Lisabob]

Yes HICO, in thinking about it some more and listening to my son's frustrations, I think you are right. He doesn't understand why a couple of the adults in the bunch keep driving them to do things a certain way, because those adults have not communicated well. These are the same adults who have voiced frustration that the boys are not behaving the way they would like them to behave. Of course it doesn't help that these same adults are doing most of the planning for the week-long trek, effectively keeping the boys in the dark about what it takes to pull off such a trip.

 

Aside from the adult:youth ratio which is still a problem, I think this is the bigger deal. Lack of communication over expectations puts everybody at cross-purposes. That, at least, is something I think I can find a constructive way of addressing on the adult side of things.

[Eagle92]

Why are the adults doing all the planning? They should be assisting inthe planning, i.e. giving advice, makeing sure of safety, etc., but the SCOUTS need to do the planning! That's the biggest problem right there.

 

Maybe we in the US could take a look at the UK for ideas. While not a Scout Association Award, many Scouts and Guides i met did have it.

http://www.dofe.org/expedition/

[asichacker]

I've read your post a couple of times...as a non-Scout (wasn't a consideration when I was a kid)...I first thing I thought was...

 

...apparently, the adults (read parents) of the boys are not as confident in the abilities and decision making capabilities of their son's as what you apparently are.

 

 

[Beavah]

...apparently, the adults (read parents) of the boys are not as confident in the abilities and decision making capabilities of their son's as what you apparently are.

 

Yah, of course not.

 

The lads change so fast! And parents have long memories. They remember the little kid of 4 years ago like it was yesterday, and the immature lad of last year like it's now. Moms more than dads, but yeh see it in both in different ways.

 

Outsiders who don't have da same history, or who work with an age group of boys and get to know what they can generally expect of that age group (like coaches and teachers and long-time SMs) tend to do better at gettin' capabilities right. Just natural, eh?

 

Yeh see the same thing in reverse sometimes too, eh? A lad can be really immature for his age, but the parent who doesn't have a group of same-age boys to compare to, thinks their lad is ahead of the game.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Have to agree with the Beav about parents and memories. At the funeral I attended last week, my father still treated me like I was a child, and that is after not seeing him for 19 years. Luckily his new wife stepped in and fixed the problem.

[Eagledad]

Of course you all are right in most cases, but I remember when Lisabob brought up the problem of the adults not letting the older scouts camp or hike by themselves. If I remember correctly, it wasn't so much a matter of trust, but a matter of parents having an excuse to go camping or hiking. Add that the SM is indifferent to the boys needs and adults needs, I think this is a different and more difficult problem. As was said by the other poster, the adults are not stating their goals to the scouts very well, so there is confusion. But when you have a SM who doesn't have goals, then it turns into a "whatever feels good at the moment" kind of program. Until a single leader stands up and says this is where we are going and this is how we will get there, the troop will coast in what the adults wants at that moment. Lisa needs to become the SM.

 

Barry

[asichacker]

Thanks Beaveh,

 

Your response, and the attitude it spews, is exactly the issue I have with my SS's troop.

 

"You weren't a Scout...so you don't know anything."

 

You've made my point in spades...

 

How about you try this on for size...

 

"You're (meaning my SS's SM, ASM's, PL's, AYO's whatever) aren't my SS's parent, so you don't know what his capabilities or limits are. And you cannot figure it out seeing him 1 or 2 hours a week."

 

Eh?

 

 

[acco40]

Lisabob-have your son look into the requirements for a patrol outing (no adults needed, SM permission needed).

 

In parallel, have an adults only meeting with the parents of the Scouts who may want to participate in a patrol outing. Ask them if they would be willing to let their sons go on a patrol outing.

 

When I was a Scoutmaster, I asked the older boys (all of which were in the same two patrols) if they would be interested in a patrol outing. They really liked the idea and planned accordingly. I aslo asked them how many of them had parents who would allow it. Most, just stared at the floor when I asked that question!

 

After lobbying, educating and reassuring the parents - we planned a "troop" outing where one half of the troop (under 13 years of age) camped at a council camp with a visiting Webelos den. I dropped of the 10 or so boys - ages 13 - 16 (we were a young troop) at the other end of the camp (about 2 miles away), got the supplies they needed out of the troop trailer and said essentially -"have fun!" I checked on them first thing in the morning and right before bedtime (unannounced "social" visit) and it was one of the most memorable outings they have had.

 

Personally, I think our expectations are much to low for our boys.

[Eagle92]

Acco,

AGREED!!!!!!!! look at soemof the things 11-18 YOs did 100 years ago, and folks would freak out and say "H377 NO!" Heck even BP went on trips with his older brothers by themselves.

[DYB-Mike]

Whoa, Asichacker, a little harsh, dont you think?

 

Beavahs post mentions Scouts in passing, along with coaches and teachers, and strikes me as simply a general observation with a lot of truth to it.

 

Surely, as a baseball coach yourself, youve encountered parents of kids who think their son is the next Manny Ortiz, but who can barely swing a bat or, conversely, parents of kids with real talent who think Johnny is wasting his time playing ball and would be better served practicing the violin because, after all, they now whats best for their boy?

 

The 1 or 2 hours a week, presumably the troop meeting, expands to include camping trips, summer camp (a week or more), service projects, and other special events. I think a leader can get a good sense of what a boy can and cannot do over that time and by observing him in that variety of settings.

 

YIS,

Mike

 

[click23]

Acco hit the nail on the head, even though this thread is almost a year old.

 

Adults are not required for this type of activity. This is from the G2SS Chapter 1 Youth Protection & Adult Leadership

 

"Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. "

 

Now I do not advocate letting your new scout patrol go off on a 25 mile backpacking trip into the wilderness. This is your troops venture patrol, they should be able to handle this. If the leaders have any concerns 2 or 3 be in the follow up group, and they should only do this until the boys are able to do it on their own.