throwing up my hands - VENT

[Twocubdad]

How many boys total are in the patrol? Are there adults going who aren't parent's of the boys? I dont' understand why the extra 6 are going. Just for the fun of it? You should buy these guys a bottle of single malt and a dozen cigars and suggest they go for an adult campout somewhere.

[Twocubdad]

How many boys total are in the patrol? Are there adults going who aren't parent's of the boys? I dont' understand why the extra 6 are going. Just for the fun of it? You should buy these guys a bottle of single malt and a dozen cigars and suggest they go for an adult campout somewhere.

[Twocubdad]

How many boys total are in the patrol? Are there adults going who aren't parent's of the boys? I dont' understand why the extra 6 are going. Just for the fun of it? You should buy these guys a bottle of single malt and a dozen cigars and suggest they go for an adult campout somewhere.

[NWScouter]

I dont get the numbers. First off I will have to tell you hiking in the Northwest, especially backpacking tend to be in Wilderness Areas/ National Parks with a hard limit of 12 beating hearts, i.e. people and dogs/horses/llamas in a group. Many other low level hikes, which is all you get this time (too much snow) have this limit too. So if the interest is high for a hike only two adults go. By the way my reading of the rules is if you sending a scout out for medical care, you can send him out with the one adult and one other scout, no over night stay, no adult alone with a scout. Youre going have his parents meeting you at the medical facility, right?

 

When I was a SM I would trusted most of the 14 to 18 year old scouts over a lot of my adults.

 

[Lisabob]

Thanks, folks, for letting me vent. I feel better now.

 

Numbers - of the 6 boys who went, 2 did not have parents in attendance (mine being one of those). 5 of the adults in question were parents (1 boy had 2 parents there). The remaining 5 adults were not parents. 1 of these was the ASM who is also the venture patrol adviser. Again, I happen to like most of these folks on a personal level, but I can't understand why they feel such a need to crowd in on the boys' experience.

 

Well they'll be back late this afternoon and I'll hear from my son then, how well things worked out. Maybe having the group separated so that some of the adults were a little ways behind will have worked out ok. I sure hope so, because this same group of 10 adults is going to accompany the boys on a week-long trek in northern MI later in the summer.

 

 

[vol_scouter]

Lisabob,

 

That is certainly a frustrating situation. Since your son wants to stay in the troop, keep trying to get the direct adult involvement to a minimum, i.e. 2 adults hiking with the boys. If the other adults stay behind and if the adults camp a fair distance from the boys (we always did that), then the number should not be a problem. Also, only one adult should function as the SM who helps to direct the troop through the SPL. The other adults should NOT give orders except in an immediate safety risk - i.e. likely immediate harm without intervention. The adults should be there as a resource that a youth could call upon if needed and just to share the experience. Adults should give suggestions to the SM, actual or acting, who will make any decisions as to implementation. The SM should be the ultimate decision maker always with council of ASM and SPL.

 

Good Luck!!

[Nike]

Lisabob,

 

Perhaps you'vve told us, but what is the Committee's stance on all these extra adults?

[skeptic]

Another indirect comparison you could use is the Philmont and other high adventure base adult restrictions. They are there for a reason; basically the one you allude to. In our area, the more popular summer camps that have really fun and advanced programs also have adult number restrictions. Maybe pointing these things out could jar their understanding a bit. We old guys used to go out alone with 8-12 on occasion; though I always tried to have at least one other with me for my sanity. Good luck.

[SMT224]

Lisabob -

 

Do you do a debriefing (thorns & roses, good & bad) after a camping trip? If so, it may be a good time for the Scouts to let the adults know what they thought of their escort service. Perhaps the adults need to hear it directly from the Scouts.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Thanks for suggestions. My son returned and said that most of the time they got shouted at by one (or more) of the adults in the group. He did not enjoy that and doesn't see much point in continuing with this venture patrol experiment if that's how people want to behave. Can't blame him.

 

While in some cases he concedes that there are things that he might have done differently, we're talking about fairly minor stuff (not behavioral problems) that doesn't justify spending a weekend getting yelled at. And from what he said, a lot of it boils down to poor communications between adults who had decided the plan FOR the boys, without necessarily communicating said plan to the boys in advance, and the boys who were not carrying out the plan in the way the adults wanted them to. Not that they were necessarily doing things really wrong, just not living up to certain expectations the adults in the group had. Things like who would tent with whom, which adults would hike with the boys, what order things should be done in the mornings, etc.. What could have been good learning experiences, like "you need to pay better attention to how much water you're using so that there's plenty left to cook lunch with" turned into confrontations and put-downs about poor leadership. Well anyway that's my son's view. I'm sure there are other perspectives on the matter too.

 

I will give it a couple more days and then approach the adults who were there to calmly discuss the matter.

 

PS - It ended up being 4 boys and 10 adults. Ugh. Maybe next time they'll hold the boys' hands too, to make sure they don't trip or anything.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[Nike]

I think the committee needs to handle this and establish adult/scout ratio's, in line with Philmont crews, or disband this experiment completely. As the ASM for this group, I would also be asking the boys to write down their opinion of how the weekend went, not in order to yank Mr. X and Ms. Y's chains, but to present the boys perceptions to the committee in general and the SM/ASM group in particular.

 

The SM is in charge of the program, and this facet is spiralling downhall quickly. He needs to step in and be the big dog.

 

Lastly, it may really be worth it to see if there is anyone else interested in estblishing a Venturing Crew in your area.

[Beavah]

Yah, wow, this is pretty extreme, eh? Four boys and ten adults??!! Not extreme. Unbelievable!

 

Can't say I know how to penetrate it. I think with that many adults, there's too many votes in favor of da status quo.

 

I think if yeh want to change the dynamic, yeh get the Venture Patrol ASM and a few like-minded parents to charter a crew. Yeh have to set up a different adult organization that the boys then join in order to leave da gang of adults behind. That's the only way it will ever work.

 

Then maybe they'll all keep up their adult camping club without the lads!

 

Beavah

 

[asm 411]

Hmmm ...

 

I thought that adults were not required on planned, SM approved patrol outings.

 

About a week and half ago the SM and I dropped two patrols 10 miles from base camp with their packs and brought our vehicles back to camp. The SPL sent the patrols out 30 minutes apart.

 

The SM and I like backpacking as well so we headed toward the boys on the same trail starting from the base camp. We met them at the 1/2 way point for lunch. Then they head out as patrols again with us bringing up the rear. Far enough behind that we did not see them and did not see them until we were back in camp.

 

One patrol missed a turn and got some extra miles in. Two Scouts had sore feet and one had to have his backpack adjusted at lunch and had sore shoulders.

 

What if their was a horrible accident? We have a Red Cross instructor run a First Aid Merit Badge class every spring for the new Scouts and we strongly encourage all Scouts to take e-prep at their first summer camp. In addition to the fact that every outdoor merit badge requires a first aid review leaves me little doubt that they Scouts could handle most any situation as well as any of our adults and better than most.

 

The PLC decided last summer that the PLs would be responsible for policing electronic devices. I don't know the actual count but I know there were several cell phones in each patrol.

 

For what it is worth Ole' Green Bar Bill said "Train 'em. Trust 'em. Let 'em led." and I believe him.

 

PS - Since the PL's took over the electronic device policing I have not seen a Scout use a cell phone for anything but checking the time, taking pictures and calling their parents on the way home from a campout when we are running early or late.

 

 

 

 

[Narraticong]

Lisa, the one thing your boys have going for them is that you are involved with the troop. Maybe plan another outing with this group after doing the "Roses and Thorns". But limit the number of adults as a "test". Keep working at boy leadership. Many parents really just don't understand how Scouts is meant to work, nor do they care. Those of us who do have to keep moving in the right direction. After a reasonable time, your son will need to decide if he wants to stay in that unit.

 

If not, I know a nice little troop in the Detroit area who could use another boy and parent who understand how things should work!

[Lisabob]

Hey Narraticong,

 

Thanks for the offer. It is nice to know there are troops out there who do get it. Too bad Warren is a long drive from here! Wouldn't mind visiting sometime though...

 

Well here's where I'm at right now. I intend to have a chat with the adults who insist on all the hand holding.

 

I'll point out that they are holding the boys back from personal growth, and that their safety precautions are out of alignment with reality, as evidenced by adult supervision requirements for much more strenuous activities like Philmont and even some of the troop's other campouts. Later this month we have a troop campout that is basically an all-day scavenger hunt (with a scout skill twist, lots of map & compass work built in). The patrols leave in the morning and come back in the evening. Yes, along the way they stop at various stations that are adult-staffed, but they don't have 4 adults following each patrol around all day long, either! The troop has been doing this campout for close to 10 years and hasn't lost a scout yet.

 

I'll suggest that if we cannot trust our older scouts to hike a few miles by themselves then we have failed these boys somewhere along the way in terms of teaching skill and developing leaders.

 

I'll offer the view that, while the boys may not have shown the leadership that some of these adults wanted to see, those same adults failed to communicate expectations to the boys in a reasonable manner ahead of time, and that these adults then usurped from the boys any chance of actually making decisions and exhibiting leadership. This has happened so often that it is no surprise when the boys no longer take initiative and instead wait for the adults to tell them what to do. When they do take initiative, they just get yelled at for doing things in a different order than certain adults wanted, anyway. Is there a mind-reading merit badge that they could work on, perhaps??

 

I'll indicate that if they want boys to stay with the program, they need to find a different way of offering input than shouting at them all weekend, which nobody could be expected to enjoy or put up with.

 

I'll point out that the whole idea of a venture patrol is to give older, more advanced scouts more adventure and more independence, not less.

 

I don't think any of the above will change their minds. As Beavah suggested, I am outvoted on the committee and the above is symptomatic of some larger troop problems with boy leadership and the patrol method in general. I fully expect the response to be that I don't understand the risks, that the boys aren't ready to lead, that they were a disappointment, that because I don't go with the group (by design! They don't need another adult tagging along!) I'm not aware of the real situation, that my son's view is not accurate, etc.

 

As for my son, oh I imagine he'll stay with the troop. The troop has its ups and downs, but in general he likes it and he has friends there. Whether he stays with the Venture Patrol is an open question. He was pretty disgusted when he came home yesterday, and that's how most of his VP activities have turned out to date.

 

When the VP got started, he thought it would be an opportunity to do cool stuff that the younger guys weren't ready for, with more autonomy. It hasn't exactly worked out that way. Yes, the VP does more hiking and backpacking, but not in an autonomous setting. A couple of the adults are really running the whole thing, albeit with good intentions. THe VP adviser has said in the past that he doesn't really care too much how it happens, his goal is simply to get the kids out backpacking and that's why he started the VP. Well that has happened, at least.

 

Normally I'm a "stick with it" type of person but I can't really blame my son for not wanting to put up with this stuff much longer. So, if he decides to step back from the VP, I'll encourage him to have his own quiet and courteous conversation with the SM first, and then the Venture Patrol adviser, to explain why. The VP adviser will most likely label this as a cop out, because I don't think that he is likely to change HIS view, but that's that.