throwing up my hands - VENT

[Lisabob]

Maybe I ought to just give it up. This weekend my son's venture patrol is going on a 20 mile hike. 6 boys. 10 adults. In the past there have been some issues of adults being overbearing (and to be fair, boys not always "shining" in their independent leadership efforts, with adults breathing down their necks all the time. Sort of a chicken-egg situation.). So this time, in the spirit of "compromise," the boys will leave 30 minutes ahead of most of the adults, and will take "only" 4 of the 10 adults in their group. The remaining 6 adults will be a mile or so down the trail. The boys don't get to choose which 4 adults accompany them - adults have already done that.

 

When I asked "why do they need 4 adults? They'll only be a couple miles down the trail!?" The answer was "in case anything happens" and "BSA policy requires 2 deep leadership at all times, so if a boy gets injured, 2 adults can leave with the boy, while the other 2 stay with the group." No discussion to the contrary appears to work, including the fabled "show me where that's written."

 

Honestly. Am I that far out on the fringe here, that I expect a group of 13-15 year old Star and Life Scouts, all of whom have the first aid merit badge and prior hiking experience, on a trail that is not particularly challenging, in terrain not different from their own backyards, and in hospitable weather conditions, NOT TO NEED A RATIO OF 2 ADULTS TO EVERY 3 BOYS??

 

You might have noticed, tact isn't always my strength. And I've gotten almost nowhere, in my (more tactful) attempts at talking with these adults. Far as I can tell, the consensus is that a) they don't trust these boys to be on their own in even the smallest of ways and b) they want an adult camping club disguised as a boy scout troop. I don't think that I'll ever be able to encourage them to see things differently. What a shame.

 

 

[SMT224]

I can only assume this is a trip to an incredibly hazardous area. Will you be crossing volcanic vents? Glacial fissures? Exploring uncharted caves? Or maybe somewhere with an abundance of wild and hungry animals? Perhaps a jungle trek in to the headwaters of the Amazon? Must be an ascent to a previously untouched peak. At any rate, I hope to God that each and every member of the expedition will be carrying at a minimum a top rated GPS Personal Locator Beacon - at only $599 it's quite a bargain considering that someone could very well wander off and never be seen again. Also, make sure that each and every member of the team carries at least a 55 gallon barrel of water - you just never know when thirst might strike. I can only assume several helicopters will be circling the area at all time - just in case. And by 10 adults... you do mean 10 adult per Scout right? I mean, you just never know when someone could slip and fall or get hungry or bored and need instant edutainment. Well, the Scouts may just make it back to do it again real soon. No doubt they will learn so much. Good Luck!

[Eagle007]

All joking aside, have you thought about starting a new troop or joining another troop where these things don't happen?

[Stosh]

It's kinda too bad the boys had to go along, the guys could do the good-old-boys, 6-pack thingy if it wasn't for the boys. Are you sure the boys have to go on ahead to allow the adults to sip along the way and the reason the boys don't know who the two adults are is because they haven't drawn straws to see who loses and has to go with the boys.

 

This sounds like a serious enough issue to take to the DE and CO. If it was me, I'd quit just because it is obvious that the BSA program even in the most restricted sense isn't being practiced. I had explicit instructions for all my ASM's to shoot me before I get this stupid.

 

Stosh

[Eagle007]

In my opinion, this has absolutely taken the fun away from the boys. Since when did the boys need to be baby sat by a bunch of grown men. I understand the need for the two deep leadership but come on. When I was coming up in scouting way back when, we had the scoutmaster and that was it. Our troop was PATROL led BY THE BOYS with oversight from the SM. Obviously over the years there has been a need for the two deep leadership but in our troop it was not needed to make sure that the SM was not doing something he ought not do or wrongly accussed thereof. We had a troop of roughly 70 scouts if I remember correctly and we took care of ourselves. We did not need our hands held by our parents on outings such as this. Now as a scouter of many years it saddens me that the generations have taken a turn for the worse and adopted this type of adult/scout ratio.

[packsaddle]

On the other hand, the adults have obviously made the connection and tried a remedy by separating the bulk of them from the boys. Another option would be to congratulate them on recognizing the problem and work in that direction to 'wean' the boys even farther off the glut of adults. It will be important to observe just how well the adults pull this off and stick to their plan.

But if they do understand the need for the boys to DO for themselves, this might be a step in the right direction and all that needs to be done is keep them moving in that right direction. They have an objective rationale for assigning four adults, now all you need to do is add boys to the outings.

 

But you know me...the eternal optimist.

[Mafaking]

 

Sorry jblake47, I must disagree with going to the DE on this.

 

Too often I see this advice on these forums, Just go to the DE or Council. Do this only if you want one pissed-off SM.

 

This is an internal spat. A difference of opinion. You have made some progress. But not enough key people share your opinion to boot out the extra adults (retired this and former that). You may consider one trip a year as a return to our roots hike. All other times this is a program designed and funded for the sole purpose of developing boys.

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Of the comments Lisabob made, I think the one about this being a Camping Club with the Troop/Boy Scout thing as a thin fascade might be the most telling.

 

Are the adults there to deliver the program or to get out on the week ends?

 

What is more important, that the boys learn something about thmselves and nature or that the trip gets logged in an impressive manner?

 

If its about being an impressive camping club, there isnt much anyone person can do about it, except for us here to recognize such things occur and then try to not let it happen in the units we serve

[Lisabob]

Let me add some things:

 

1) My son does not want to change troops, but he has expressed that he would like more independence in the troop he's in. He has talked to the SM, the CC, brought it up at his BOR, pushed the issue with the ASM who is the venture patrol adviser. All of that, independently from me. I'm supporting him in this, but not pushing him in this.

2) I really like the Scoutmaster. However, the venture patrol is not really overseen by the SM, but rather by another group of adults who loosely touch base with the SM. I also really like most of those adults, and particularly respect the one ASM who helped the boys get this patrol started last year, but they just don't seem to "get" the idea of a boy-led program.

 

This isn't about adults drinking and carousing. They aren't "that kind" of folks. There are some helicopter adults in the group though. I think it is mainly about many of the adults wanting to do cool stuff too. But, I'm sorry, it isn't their club. There is an all-ages hiking club in the area. I am thinking of bringing in their literature for these adults and saying something to the effect of "here, go hike with these folks." This will likely make me unpopular.

 

Pack - I do appreciate your idea of getting more boys to dilute the ratio. But this is a patrol, not a whole troop. And frankly, why would any other older boys want to join, just to be mother-henned (and mostly father-henned) like this?

 

 

[evmori]

I can sorta understand the number of adults with the boys if this was an extremely dangerous hike. If not, the two deep leadership requirement doesn't mean two adults.

 

I'd find or start a new unit. You will never change these guys! Heck, we use to go on hiking weekends with three total adults & 10 Scouts!

[SMT224]

Perhaps you, via your son, could work with the Venture Patrol in addressing the concerns of the adults that believe 4 adults are needed to be with the Scouts at all times, "in case anything happens". What is the level of training in Venture Patrol? How many of the Scouts have the First Aid Merit Badge? How many have E-Prep? How many have wilderness Survival? By letting the concerned adults know that there are a sufficient number trained Scouts to handle an emergency may calm the adults. Perhaps the Scouts are even better trained than the adults! Just being an adult does not endow one with the training needed to handle an emergency better than a Scout who has been trained in First Aid.

 

Also, suggest the Venture Patrol carry 2 high powered radios to call for help should an situation arise that is beyond their ability. The four adults, if they still insist on being near the Scouts could follow at 1/4 - 1/2 mile -- close enough to zoom in if someone really needed their help, but far enough away to give the Scouts some peace.

[Stosh]

I hope, LisaBob, that you understood my posting as a wee-bit of sarcasm. If not, please do so. However, 10 adults for 6 boys is way out of line. A venture patrol needs but one adult that is "handy" but doesn't involve him/herself in the activity. I can see one, maybe two, for company, adults staying in base camp near the vehicles that camps for the weekend while the boys go off and do their independent thing in the woods. Surely one can find an area that can accommodate such an arrangement. If there is a problem two boys can return to base camp for assistance, otherwise they are on their own. Even with radios, one has to get to the vehicles and cell-phone range to get the appropriate help. If the boys are in cell-phone range, make the call to 9-1-1 and then to the base camp adults who can come to the assistance and/or wait for the medical/rescue people and direct them to the boys.

 

For me this would be an excellent opportunity for me as an adult to work on my dutch-oven cooking skills, reading, or maybe a day-hike as long as I stay within communication range. If 10 people want to join me, fine, but they don't go with the boys, they stay in base-camp and we do our good-old-boys thing there.

 

As an aside, if the ASM/venture patrol advisor, can't do the boy-led thing, then it's time to get someone in there that can, or best yet, leave the boys alone to do their own boy-led thing without adult's hovering around, no advisor at all. Maybe someone to assist in the planning, i.e. lining up rides, etc. that an adult would do anyway to ASSIST the boys in their planning.

 

To me this smacks of Den Chief training. You are there to work with the boys BUT YOU CANNOT PARTICIPATE. If a DC can figure this out, so can some of the more thick skulled adults.

 

I was assuming that maybe the SM and CC were part of the problem, then a DE might be necessary, but if it's only the PA being a pill, then it's time for the boys to address this issue with SM. As a SM, I spend almost as much time helping the kids as I do keeping adults from interfering. The more we become boy-led the less I have to do to keep the adults out. Once they figure out the boys are capable and trustworthy enough to do the activity without adult intervention, they back off. Until then, protect the boys from the adults.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

This has probably been mentioned before, but you could always check into starting a Venturing Crew. Get your minimum numbers and get it started. Run it the way you want to run it, and use it as an example to let the adults see the boys can handle it. I think the only way you are going to change these adults is for them to see it happen and see the results. Your DE will love you (starting a new unit he/she gets to count). The VC doesn't have to compete or conflict with the Troop - you can schedule around the Troop calendar. But if the Troop doesn't change their attitude, they could end up losing many boys to the VC.

[raisinemright]

The ratio is way off. On a recent backpack trek, me and the other leader put the hammer down and hiked well ahead of the boys the last day, beating them to the car by 30 minutes or so. That's they way it should be.

 

We tend to have too many dads come to some campouts. What I've started doing at campouts I'm overseeing is to state the amount of parents who are invited. I keep the number relatively low.

 

This weekend, I'm skipping my first campout in over a year and it's killing me. I do pretty good at letting the scouts do their thing, but I really enjoy camping too.

 

The camp is only a few miles north of us. I'll be popping in this afternoon to see how th eboys do with one of their activities. Me and another leader set up three geocache challenges for them and marked the coordinates.

[JoeBob]

The two-deep leadership rule is being used as a foil for the adults wanting to tag along.

 

1- What are they going to do if there is a second injury farther down the trail? Then you'd have the first 2 adults and 1 injured scout gone. Are they going to send the remaining two adults out with the second injury and leave the 4 healthy scouts solo, or are they going to leave 1 adult with 4 scouts and send a solo adult and the second injured scout out in violation of 2 deep? Using this twisted logic, you'd have to have two adults for every scout in case they all get injured. (On second thought, you might not want bring this one up. Your group might see a need to ADD 2 adults...)

2- I don't think that an injured scout with single adult is an opportunity for adult misbehaviour. That type of predator will find easier targets.

3- Sometimes we have to overlook the rules and use our brains. If someone wants a confrontation about violating 2 deep in this scenario, it should be an easily won one-sided debate.

4- If your patrol insists on hovering, have one adult walk point, a few hundred yards in front of the boys to handle any unforeseen challenges; and one adult walk sweep, 100 yards behind, to cover the stragglers. The boys can then enjoy their own interactions while encased in a cocoon of adult 'safety'.

 

You did post this as a vent, right Lisabob? When I was scouting, we took our first 10 milers with the ASM (Vigil name: Hiker). The SM would drop us off and wait for us at the end. Afer the first few hikes, we were on our own. Granted this was on the well-marked Appalachian Trail with litle chance of getting lost. I remember a pit-stop on the 20 miler for water and blister help, but we walked on our own. There were occasional games of grab-ass and ambush, but that's what made it FUN! The plethora of adults you describe would have stifled any leadership developement.

 

Good luck with it.

Yer Cuz,

JoeBob