National Policy Changing re: Unsupervised Patrol Outings

[OldGreyEagle]

What if we all called Irving's main number, asked for the Camping section of the Boy Scout Division and asked is this was tru...

 

[asm 411]

I am sorry if I implied the boys could not go and do GtSS prohibited activities at all as individuals or as a group. That as not my intent. I wrote "I looked at them and said that you can not go to laser tag as a patrol or a troop".

 

I have taken my own son and several of his friends who are Scouts and some who are not Scouts to Laser tag. When my son was a Cub and I was Den Leader he and I worked on projects using power tools as well. These were not Cub Scout events so the GtSS does not apply.

 

I think that if Scouts are planning an event that is prohibited by the GTSS as if it is Scouting ( at troop meetings or PLC meetings or Patrol meetings ) and calling it not Scouting they are being devious and it should not be done.

 

Scout event planning has several key points in it. One is two deep leadership or a plan approved by the Scoutmaster. Verifying the event does on conflict with the GtSS. Possibly a tour permit.

 

For a Scout to say "I going to play laser tag on Friday at 6:00 anyone else want to come?" at a Scout meeting is not planning an event as if it were Scouting. It is letting his friends know something cool is going on.

 

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

[BrentAllen]

SR540Beaver,

Understand that I have a little Neal Boortz in me and I like playing devil's advocate, sometimes.

 

Tell what you would do in this hypothetical scenario.

 

Billy starts talking about playing paint ball with his patrol (Wolf patrol) at a Scout meeting. They all decide they want to play that Saturday. Billy then challenges the boys in the Cobras to play them on Saturday. Those boys accept. It isn't mentioned since it is obvious to the boys, but they won't wear Scout uniforms since they will be wearing their paint ball camo.

 

No leaders involved in any of the discussion, which takes place at a Troop meeting. As SM, you overhear the plans, but they aren't mentioned to you. What do you do? Ignore it or stop it? Explain your answer.

 

One more twist - eventually all the boys in the other patrols are challenged and accept. Every boy in the Troop is going to be there, but again, no adult leader was ever involved. Does this change your answer from above?

[MarkS]

I think it's safe to say that if the boys in a troop are good friends, they're going to do things together outside of the troop. Some of which they can't do in the troop because of BSA polcies. As long as the unit is not involved in any way, I don't understand how the BSA could get sued over this if someone gets hurt.

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

Like I said in my earlier post, if it is friends who want to go do something on their own on a Saturday and they talk to each other where they see each other.....at the troop meeting, no big deal. I've asked scouter friends to go out to eat or to a sporting event because the only place I know them and see them is at scouts. Those are personal plans. It is when the Wolf Patrol chaalenges the Moose Patrol to a laser tag showdown and the SM things it would be a great idea to invite all the other patrols that you get into it becoming a troop activity regardless of whether you do it officially or skirt the issue by calling it unofficial. That is when the unit starts "owning" the activity. A few buds talking privately at the troop meeting to make personal weekend plans among themselves is not a unit activity.

 

This isn't hard guys. If the rules say it is off limits, you don't make an announcement, plan it, organize transportation, facilitate it, etc. If Billy asks me if he can make an announcement to the troop, the answer would be no, but you can personally invite whoever you want as time allows.

[SR540Beaver]

Back to the original post. If BSA does away with allowing adult free outings, that would be a sad day. However, I would venture to say that the frequency of such outings within a given unit and the number of units who allow them is probably very small and would not have much effect on the scouting community as a whole........right or wrong.

[mmhardy]

BrentAllen,

 

First, these guys would be text messaging or using IM in Facebook to set this up.

 

If it's a small troop your scenario is plausible.

 

Are you suggesting a "guilt by association" rational. In other words they are all Scouts from the same troop ergo its a Scouting Event.

 

Nope.

 

This is why we have by-laws. A sanctioned Troop event is planned by PLC and supported by the Troop Committee and follows all the G2SS stuff.

 

If the boys get together and split up a bunch of paint ball coupons at the troop meeting that's their business. This is exactly what happened in our unit. BTW..these guys had a blast. This Band of Brothers (about 8-10 of them) will be friends for life.

 

[Twocubdad]

The devil's in the details.

 

In an event that becomes this involved, I would be surprised if at some point some of the adult leaders hadn't become involved. Do all the boys live within walking distance of the paintball range? How are they getting there. Are all of them paying with their own money? Does the range have a waiver for a parent to sign? Are we sure all this stuff is handled individually?

 

Are you sure no one from the third or fourth patrol down the invitation list didn't go home and say "oh yeah, it's a Scout activity, the whole troop's going." Are you sure none of the ASMs haven't gotten behind the project?

 

At some point this thing begins to waddle and quack like a troop activity. My point is that there is a fuzzy line beyond which the activity takes on the mantle of a troop activity. As SM, at that point I need to look out for the organization, step in and, at minimum, make sure everyone understands that this is not a troop-sanctioned event and that the scouts and parents are aware that the troop is not supervising. If we just sit there fat, dumb and happy then we are giving a wink and a nod to a violation of the rules.

 

I've had situations where parents' expectations for unit leader involvement and supervision were different from that of the unit. I've gotten a earful from some unhappy moms even though nothing bad has ever happened.

 

On the other hand, in a less convoluted example, I agree that coincidental membership in a patrol doesn't preclude boys from getting together and doing their own thing.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

mmhardy,

I agree with your definition - if it is planned by the PLC, put on a Scout calendar, approved by the SM, then it is a Troop function. Otherwise, it isn't.

 

SR540Beaver,

The point I was trying to make is for every clear rule to someone, many others will see it differently. See the thread about the service hours for Cit. in Community req.

 

True story for you. Back before I got involved in leadership with the Pack, one of the rising Web II dens decided to go whitewater rafting on the Nantahala as a den campout. Den Leader didn't know that wasn't allowed. They had already made the reservations when he learned Webelos couldn't be on moving water. His solution - ok, this is not a Scouting trip, the dads are going to take the boys rafting. A dad went with every son. I would think that based on your earlier post, you as CM wouldn't allow the trip. If that is true (trip was originally planned as a Den overnighter), then how do you stop them from going? They are cleary making it an "unofficial" trip to get around the rules. Are you going to call the DL and tell him he can't go? What do you think his answer is going to be?

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

Simple. You make sure that everyone knows in no uncertain terms that even though the trip HAD been planned as a den outing, it is not allowed under scout rules and the Pack in no way endorses the event or has anything to do with it. As a den outing, it is cancelled and taken off of the Pack calendar. At that point, the individuals wanting to participate are free to go ahead with their personal plans and go rafting.

[Hal_Crawford]

Brent:

I agree with SR540 but would add that he should put it in writing.

Hal

[Beavah]

Yah, I don't know yet if this is just rumor or not, eh? Hard to figure out who does what down there after the reorganization. I think it's keepin' with a trend and some external pressures is all.

 

Writin' is nice, but if yeh really want to achieve something you contact your council office or COR and find out who your representatives to the national meeting are, eh? Then you contact them... in person. Send 'em off to the annual meetin' with an agenda to push, eh? Those are da folks who elect the BSA's board. Have 'em communicate directly that yeh want to see Risk Management's Wings clipped. That we put kids and character development ahead of dubious legal risk management.

 

Enough folks do that, it will be felt.

 

Other way is to back door it through relationships, eh? Have your CO communicate its displeasure through its national scouting association.

 

BSA's not all that great at listenin' to letters from consumers. But customers (CO's and councils) get listened to.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

I guess I'm out of the loop on this - unaware of changes, rumor or not. I didn't even know there was a reorganization in Irving. But, come to think of it, when all the real work is done by volunteers what is left for top-heavy, bloated organizations to do BUT reorganize?

Anyway, when someone figures it out, let me know. I'll be, you know, like camping and stuff.

 

FWIW, the guys in this unit only mention laser tag about once a year and paintball almost never. Mountain biking, yes. Caving, yes. Backpacking, yes. I guess we're deprived.

[BadenP]

I was reading a Scoutmasters Handbook last night from 1967, in the first three pages it does an excellent summary of what scouting is supposed to be about, its methods and purposes and fun, which I would heartily recommend that everyone in the National office should be required to read before they come up with these ridiculous policy changes.

 

I guess I have to agree with Kudu, there is a lot of wisdom in the older handbooks which has been lost or forgotten over the years, maybe it is time to reincorporate some of it back into todays handbooks and trainings.

[MarkS]

Yeah... there's a lot of useful stuff in the older handbooks... a lot of outdated stuff too. I think it's a good idea to re-evaluate things every now and then and modernize. All change comes with pros and cons and not everyone will agree on which is which. However, if you don't re-evaluate things, scouting or otherwise, you might find the world passed you by while you were drving your horse and buggy to work. ;-)