National Policy Changing re: Unsupervised Patrol Outings

[asm 411]

Narraticong I am with you.

 

I have heard similar arguments about Laser Tag. At one time the Scouts started giving me a hard time about not being able to go to Laser Tag. I looked at them and said that you can not go to laser tag as a patrol or a troop. I also told them that I also think that the BSA banning laser tag is a bit extreme in to me as well. I don't like the rule but we have to live with it.

 

I then explained that a rule is a rule until the rule changes. If they think they have a case for changing the rule write a letter to National and see what they say. No one took me up on the idea and they backed off.

 

If Scouters look for loop holes to defeat the spirit on a rule what are we showing them. I think it shows the Scouts that what we personally want is more important than following rules. This is major problem in our society as it is. Let's not promote it.

 

As from me I feel taking away the adult free patrol outing is a big mistake. There are criteria that have to be followed to have an adult free outing including planning approved by the Scoutmaster. I really hope this is just a rumor.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Narraticong and asm 411,

So, by your interpretation, the boys in a patrol can never arrange to go on a camping trip on their own. And they can never just call each other up and go play laser tag. Amazing. My son and several of his friends (who are in or were in his patrol at the time) would go play laser tag for a birthday party. By your ruling, they couldn't do this because it could be construed as a Scouting event.

 

So, Scouts can't just be friends, they must be under the BSA umbrella and let the G2SS rule their lives at all times. I find that type of thinking fascinating.

 

How far do you want to take this type of thinking? Can your son never go play laser tag with any Scout who happens to be in his patrol? Where do you draw this imaginary line? Does 3 boys from a patrol make it a Scout event? How many is the magic number?

[Buffalo Skipper]

Brent,

As I was reading the overnight posts, I was thinking the same thing as you. I can't take my son and 3 of his friends (who happen to be in his patrol--isn't that what scouts is promoting with patrols--making friends?) to play laser tag because if enough troop friends show up it would be considered a defacto troop event. That is hogwash.

[SR540Beaver]

Of course kids and adults can go play laser tag or camp on their own. If Billy calls Tommy, Sam and Harry (all from the same patrol or troop) on Saturday morning and says, hey, you want to go play some laser tag, that is one thing. If SM Smokeshifter makes an announcement during a troop meeting that there will be a bunch of guys (wink, wink) going to play laser tag this Saturday and ASM's Baconstretcher and Firestarter will be driving (nudge, nudge) if anyone needs a ride, and make sure you don't wear a scouting shirt because this isn't a scouting event (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that is something totally different.

 

Too often the later is what happens......just like the infamous sod surfing from a few years back. The whole troop went and stayed in troop tents and cooked on troop gear from the troop trailer on a scheduled weekend, but it was an "unofficial" event.

 

A few guys getting calling each other and getting together to camp or play laser tag is fine. If/when it includes a large portion of the troop and gets planned/organized at a meeting with a caveat that it is unofficial, that is indeed teaching boys how to skirt the rules and policies and is counterproductive to the oath and law.

[evmori]

Not sure this is even an issue, SR540Beaver. If it's announced at a Scout unit meeting that doesn't make it a Scouting event!

[Beavah]

We all know we are talking about finding a way to get around this potential change in policy.

 

Yah, so? What we're talkin' about is a licit way around this potential policy. Ain't nothin' unethical, immoral, or incorrect about that. In fact, that's what most good, ethical folks do when confronted by a stupid policy, eh? They find a licit way around it.

 

Sorry, there's nothing at all wrong with Scoutmaster Smokeshifter standin' up at a meeting and announcing that the church is also running a Pop Warner football program and any boys who want to come try out should show up on Wednesday evening, where Assistant Scoutmaster Whatchamacallit will be assistant coach and several troop committee members are available for carpool duty because their kids are interested. We call that "crossmarketing". Lots of troops chartered to churches announce other church-sponsored events at their meetings. And there's somethin' wrong with a troop that won't let a boy announce to his patrol-mates that they're invited to his birthday party.

 

So although competitive football ain't allowed in Scouting, if the entire troop decides to also join the church's Pop Warner program, that is a licit way around the rule. The BSA can't tell the church not to sponsor a Pop Warner team, nor can it forbid boy scouts from playing football outside da BSA, nor can it tell its adult leaders that they can't also be coaches for another organization, nor can it forbid announcements of other church youth programs at a meeting of the church's scout troop.

 

Fact is, we have all-female Venturing Crews we've accepted into the BSA which were chartered just so a GSUSA unit could get around the often ridiculous GSUSA outing rules, eh? Are you sayin' that because our Venturers are also registered Girl Scouts, they can't participate on Venturing activities if da GSUSA wouldn't allow the activity?

 

Like BrentAllen, I find this notion that BSA guidelines can creep into people's personal lives to be bizarre and more than a little disturbin'. I suppose next will be that if an adult hasn't taken da BSA's new chainsaw safety class he's not allowed to use a chainsaw on his own property. To be honest, I think teachin' kids somethin' like that is unethical and more than a bit unAmerican.

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Hal_Crawford]

If a group of kids who happen to be scouts go camping on their own then BSA has nothing to say about it. That's probably true. If they are assisted in this by their scout leader who perhaps suggests the activity, helps organize it and or supports it by taking driving the scouts to the trailhead then it begins then it begins to sound like a scout activity. If something bad happens, a camper is injured or killed, a forrest fire is started, whatever, the leader could be held personally responsible. BSA insurance would not cover it. I would ask the leaders who are thinking up ways to circumvent this policy, how good is your insurance? How far out on a limb do you want to climb for the concept of patrol camping? Are you willing to risk your savings? Your home? BSA is doing away with patrol camping because they do not want to take on the liability; do you?

 

The Great Salt Lake Council were sued for $14 million for damages and the cost of fire fighting when unsupervised scouts started a forrest fire in Utah. On your own, do you have the resources to even pay lawyers to defend yourself let alone pay the judgement? Think about it.

 

Hal

[Beavah]

Yah, grumpy day at da forums. Knew the insurance boogeyman would show up.

 

So, if anybody got at all worried about Hal_Crawford's scenario, let me ask...

 

Do yeh ever drive carpool for your son's soccer team?

 

Do yeh ever have your son's friends over to your house for a birthday party? Or just to play in the yard?

 

Your risk exposure from drivin' carpool is goin' to be a heck of a lot greater than takin' a few boys camping. Car accidents do bad, bad things to young bodies, and a car full of kids can run to millions in liability exposure, blowin' through individual auto and homeowner policies.

 

So if yeh drive your son's friends home from the swim meet, you've already taken on more risk then yeh would helpin' some lads go camping. That swingset in your back yard? That tree that the neighbor's boy climbs without direct supervision?

 

Yeh can make yourself nuts with this stuff, eh?

 

Point is, trained scouts on a hike ain't nuthin' compared to the other risks we all incur every day without gettin' ulcers. If it bothers you, take out a bigger personal liability umbrella policy. They're cheap!

 

Yah, and Salt Lake Council was sued because its employees started da fire, eh? The rules are a bit different for kids; often parental liability for acts by children is limited.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

Do we know for sure that this is going to happen? Can we wait until its officially announced and then pounce on the issue? I would not want to see adultless patrol outings disappear myself, but before we get all in a lather, lets make it the situation is lather-worthy in the first place

[Twocubdad]

A group of boys, all members of the same patrol go do something together -- no adults, no uniforms, no troop approval, no tour permit. Something goes wrong and the injured part sues everyone in sight, including BSA.

 

What do you think BSA's first defense argument will be?

[SR540Beaver]

Apples and oranges Beavah. Announcing an opportunity that the charter sponsors aside from scouting is not unit activity. It is merely kids participating in different things. No different than a kid being on the debate team at school and playing softball for his church rec team. Same kid, two different organizations and activities. Girl Scouts being part of a Venturing Crew are two different organizations that have nothing to do with one another. What the Crew does on outings has nothing to do with their membership in GSUSA.

 

When a troop decides that a policy or rule of the BSA is stupid and therefore we'll just go ahead and plan it and organize it and facilitate it and just (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) call it "unofficial", is teaching boys to be untrustworthy. Again, if Billy calls Timmy and says, "hey you want to go fishing down at the creek with Tommy and Sam" and Timmy says, "nah, how about laser tag instead".....is a totally different animal. The fact that the boys all belong to the same school, church or boy scout troop is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the troop or patrol.

 

The difference is that friends can make up their own rules and do whatever they want, whenever they want. If they happen to talk to each other at a troop meeting instead of over the phone, no biggie. It is when they discuss it as a patrol activity and the rest of the troop picks up on it along with the adult leadership and it starts getting planned as a troop related activity that you start flirting with rule bending.

 

I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud guys. I personally love playing laser tag. I disagree with the BSA's stance on it. But I will never allow it to be a patrol or troop activity.....official or unofficial. The boys can do it as a group of friends on their own time.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I think OGE has it right here, but without ranting on the topic, let me go back to what I originally said. First, can we find out if this is being seriously discussed? If it is, what can we do--before it becomes a policy change and affects patrols who do go camping.

 

I will certainly be glad to work up letters from our council and area to go to someone at national concerning this. The fact is, in order to repsond, responsibly, I need information. Where do I get this?

 

Wouldn't this be a great opprotunity to involve your scouts (patrols) in addressing this issue? I think that would be a great lesson on how getting involved may make a difference. Think about it....

[evmori]

Sorry but if Scoutmaster Billy stands up at a Scout meeting and announces Tommy Tenderfoot & his buds are going paintballing on Saturday & if anyone wants to go to let Tommy Tenderfoot know doesn't make it a Scouting outing!

[mmhardy]

Here is an example of the activities that our boys, who just happen to be in the same troop, have done together without adult supervision.

 

Paint Ball

Hunt

Lazar Tag

Heavy Metal Concerts in the Warehouse District

 

These are all 16-18 yo, from Star up who get organized, plan and execute outings that they want to experience. Our troop families are close and the parents encourage this outside the formality of the troop setting. Why? Because we trust our boys and have taught them well.

 

Not everything we do has to be done under cover of the BSA.

[gcnphkr]

Rather than argue about how to get around this or the various rules regarding pointing firearms and each other, might it be more productive to write our council, regional and national powers that be and tell them why this is a bad idea? I know who to write at council and region, who do we write in Irving?