getting away from ad hoc patrols

[Lisabob]

So in the other thread the topic turned to ad hoc patrols and Brent observes that he doesn't see how you can build patrol spirit when you are always recombining boys due to variations in patrol attendance at camp outs.

 

My son's troop does this all the time, nearly every camp out. I agree with you, Brent, that it destroys patrol identity. The patrols don't truly have their own patrol boxes because when they make temp. patrols for campouts, boys from a bunch of patrols end up using others' equipment. The patrols barely have an identity because they don't actually do many things along patrol lines. Patrol menu planning and duty rosters end up being a joke because if 2 patrols plan menus but then they get combined due to low participation, one of those menus is going by the wayside. Patrol leaders are undermined because half the time they're leading boys who are not really from their patrols which changes the patrol dynamic, etc.

 

Now when I've suggested that we quit it and just let patrols deal with low turn out from tmie to time, I am always shot down by other adult leaders, esp. the CC. The reasons typically relate to food costs, tent partners, and divisions of labor. We give the boys a budget for food (I think it is $11/boy for a typical campout) and other leaders don't think that it is possible to buy food for decent meals on that amount of money for just a couple of people. They argue that economies of size help out when you have a larger group. With labor, I'm told there is just too much to do for a very small patrol and it would be more efficient to combine with other small patrols. And with tents, people say you have to have tent partners for all boys so small or odd #s are a problem and require shuffling of patrols to compensate.

 

My thoughts are that reasons 2 and 3 are hogwash, pure and simple. As for #1, I dunno. Am I unrealistic? Can you not cook two breakfasts, a lunch and a dinner for two people on $22? Any thoughts on how else to overcome these objections? So far I've not been successful.

[BrentAllen]

Lisa,

I quote from Baden-Powell: "Patrols should be kept intact under all circumstances." I don't know if that will help you, but it is from the man!

 

As for food planning, we budget the following way:

Breakfast - $2

Lunch - $3

Dinner - $5

 

Two breakfasts, a lunch and a dinner for two would run $24, pretty close to your number. We find the boys can eat pretty well within these limits.

 

If there were only 2 boys in a patrol going on a trip, I would much rather have them struggle together as a team than to throw them in with another patrol. Mixing them messes with the dynamics of both patrols.

 

We aren't there yet, but imagine a Troop full of patrols that were as ardent about their patrol identity as Wood Badgers are. That is the way I remember it being in our Troop, back in the dark ages when I was a Scout. We had so many patrol competitions and contests that we had a ton of patrol loyalty, just like being on a sports team.

[baschram645]

Lisabob,

The only time we throw patrols together is when only 1 member goes from his patrol. One thing you can do is have what we taught our scouts, when they only have two or three members go on an outing one option isthat each scout brings food from home. They each bring something for each meal. Oatmeal packets and apples, (six packets and six apples) = 2 breakfasts. Loaf of bread and jars of PB and Jam, 3 more apples, or cans of soup , cheese slices and loaf of bread (grilled cheese)= lunch. Dinner can be done the same way. This beats mom or dad running to the store. Teaches the boys to use their imagination when menu planning. A venison roast disappeared from my freezer for one campout. After that we make sure that they have asked mom first.

[GernBlansten]

Lisa,

Our unit mirrors yours. We have on average 40-50 scouts registered, but only 20 attend a given campout. This has created a culture of ad-hoc patrols at every campout. I'm the backpacking, high adventure guy, so I focus on keeping the 14+ year olds active. I've been an ASM for 5 years and recently moved to venture crew advisor. Our past SM, a woodbadger, really didn't push the issue. We now have a new SM and ASM who are fresh woodbadgers. They certainly are enthusiastic on teaching EDGE and leadership. I am eager to see if they can change the culture of the troop.

[Mike F]

We do it like Baschram -- if 2 or more are there, they camp and participate as a patrol. If their numbers are really small (or inexperienced), other guys voluntarily lend a hand with some of the heavy lifting of camp setup. I have served in another troop which continuously combined members on campouts and it was the disaster Lisabob described. No patrol spirit or identity. Although not recommended by BSA, we also have 9-10 members in our patrols. It takes a little more coaching to help PLs cope with size, but even in the midst of sports/band/etc seasons, our patrols have sufficient numbers to function as patrols.

 

We also don't regulate how much they can spend on meals, although we suggest it should be around $10-15. Patrol food money is handled completely within the patrols and not touched by adults.

 

Are adults really managing tent partners? The only thing we do is remind PLs to make sure the brand new guys have a slightly more experienced buddy for the first couple of campouts. Other than that, the patrols work it out. We don't have troop tents. Most of the guys have their own and they take better care of them. Some tent solo. (With patrol buddies in a tent 4 feet away, nobody loses any sleep over it.) Some pile 3 small guys into a 2-man tent. Many times they'll have a tent or two up, but decide to sleep under the stars. One patrol has started bringing a large family tent for the entire patrol. I've seen meltdowns in this situation before and the PL knows the first outburst of rowdy behavior or extended talking after lights out will be the end of the big tent option. So far, so good. In short, managing tentage for his patrol is part of the PLs job and I recommend letting him do it.

[gwd-scouter]

LisaBob, I'm writing to give you an example of the patrol method in use in a very small Troop. We have always numbered somewhere around 10-16 boys in our Troop. Right now we have nine. Being so small we've operated as one patrol. Last year, in an effort to build some king of patrol identity and spirit, the guys split into 2 patrols: 5 (scouts in middle school ages 11-13, Scout-First Class) and 4 (14-17, First Class-Life).

 

Another reason we split into two small patrols is that we are expecting a large number of Webelos to cross over very soon: 10 are coming from two different Packs in the end of March, another 4 in April, and possibly a few more in May. We wanted (well, OK, I wanted) our guys to have a strong patrol setup and training in the patrol method so that when we finally grew the Troop they would be ready. They are ready and the new Scouts are coming.

 

For the first time in many many years, they have patrol names, flags and cheers. They created their own patrol boxes and they camp in patrol areas. We haven't yet had a campout where only one member of a patrol comes, but we've had several where there were only two.

 

Menu planning is quite easy with only two guys. Not as much arguing about what to eat. Our budget is 10-12 per person for food. I've noticed the guys bring items from home when they are so small in number that there isn't an economical way to buy something (i.e., a few slices of bread rather than a whole loaf).

 

With our two small patrols, all the boys are actively engaged in planning for and participating in our campouts. Yep, they have to set up, cook, clean, and take care of each other much more than when a patrol has eight or ten members. No perceived unfairness in the division of labor - they have to do it all. Wuite frankly, the argument your group is giving about the Scouts having to do too much if they have a small patrol turn out just isn't accurate from what I've seen with our patrols. Sure if only two guys show up they have to cook and clean at every meal. But, cooking for two can be much easier and more efficient than cooking for eight, and clean up is a snap. Example: one of our patrols only had two guys going and decided to bring a backpack stove and boil water to make oatmeal and hot chocolate for breakfast. Piece of cake. Breakfast done in a jiffy and no need to clean out pots and pans. Having to make plans for a small group has actually required our guys to think more creatively.

 

I will say that I received a bit of resistance from a few other leaders with regard to this setup. Their reasoning was basically that it would just be much easier with only nine Scouts to keep it as one patrol, one menu, one patrol box, etc. etc. After having our two little patrols for a while, and seeing these guys come together and work together much better than they ever did as one patrol, the other adults are now on board. It also helped when I mentioned the adults had a small 'patrol' (2-3 on a campout) and we managed very well with our small numbers.

 

So, the new Webelos are coming. The four older Scouts (Awesomeness patrol) are in charge of the new guys. We will most likely form two new Scout patrols for a few months while the Awesomeness patrol helps them learn the basics. The guys then want to move those guys into regular mixed-age patrols at our annual planning weekend in September.

 

Others have commented frequently in many threads about the patrol method. Knowing how we struggled for years with one patrol and how well these guys are doing with our two small patrols, I agree wholeheartedly that patrols should be left alone to do what they need to do and not mixed or otherwise messed with for some adult's idea of convenience.

 

Good luck in convincing your Troop. It probably won't be an easy sell, but it's well worth the effort.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Lisa,

A couple more pieces of wisdom from Green Bar Bill that might help you:

 

"the Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method."

And the two-fold secret for success is simple:

I. Make the Patrol the unit ALWAYS, in and out, through thick and thin, for better and worse, in victory and defeat, in games and contests, at meetings, on hikes, and in camp.

 

II. Train your boy leaders for their positions, place the responsibility of leadership on them and let them exercise it.

 

Only as a Scoutmaster acts on this principle does he understand--and use--the Patrol Method.

 

---and---

 

ARE THE PATROLS PATROLS?

 

If a Scoutmaster should feel that he fails in having success with the Patrol Method, let him ask himself a few pertinent questions, instead of looking elsewhere for a place to throw the blame.

 

"Do I always think of my Patrols in terms of the leaders? Do I always transmit announcements and information to the Scouts through the Patrol Leaders?

 

"Do I always answer the Scouts questions about routine details by saying, Ask you Patrol Leader; he knows! instead of giving them the answer myself, thus doing my part to develop in them a certain amount of respect for those leaders, to whom they have to look for vital facts and guidance?

 

"Do I keep asking the Patrol Leaders for specific pieces of information about their boys, such as advancement, progress, home conditions, finances?

 

"Do I stick these alleged leaders right out in front at every opportunity where they get a feeling of leadership?

 

"Do I commend them publicly whenever they show signs of taking responsibility, and do I always refrain from criticizing them before their group?

 

"When something goes wrong in one of those Patrols during a Troop meeting, say a little matter of discipline, do I jump on the boys themselves, or do I first call the Patrol Leader aside and point out the situation to him, making him realize that it is his responsibility to handle it?"

 

Those are some of the questions a Scoutmaster may ask himself. If his answer to most of them is "Yes!" then he is truly a leader of boy leaders. But not only thathe is using the Patrol Method in his Troop!

 

 

[SMT224]

We did the "Camping Patrol" thing for several years and, as others have stated, it did little to enhance of strengthen the existing Patrols. Finally, after a disastrous camping trip, the PLC decided never again. Now, if there are at least 2 Scouts in a Patrol going on a camping trip, they do their own cooking and tenting. It has worked out much better, and the Scouts are happier to be able to plan menus and tenting within their own Patrol. One change that has allowed this to happen is the removal of the "only 8 to a Patrol" rule. Some of our Patrols have 12, some 6, others 10. With this many Scouts in a Patrol, there are almost always 4 to 8 Scouts per Patrol on a camping trip. The Patrols collect their own money ($10, sometimes $15) and do their own shopping - adults are not involved. This has worked just fine even when there are only 2 Scouts camping - they can get very creative and have a lot of fun doing their own cooking.

 

Lisabob - My recommendation is to discuss in your PLC. Let the Scouts make the decision. The CC or any other adult has no business mucking with this if the Scouts decide they will keep the Patrols together on camping trips.

 

[Stosh]

May I also add, that when it comes to the adults AND troop officer leadership (SPL, ASPL, TG, QM, etc.) they lead by supporting the PL's. My only instruction to all of these people is to do what's necessary to make the PL's "look good" in front of their boys. If they need help with anything, roll up your sleeves and pitch in. If it's a positive assistance, make it totally public. If it's a negative assistance (i.e., discipline, correction, etc.) then make it privately with the PL only.

 

Contact with a patrol member is not the job of any adult or TOC member (please don't cherry-pick that comment out of context), they always work through and with the PL. These boys "belong" to their patrol under the guidance, leadership and authority of their PL. Keep out of the way of his leadership unless it's an issue of safety, G2SS, or some BSA policy enforcement. Then any actions taken by an adult and/or TOC scout is followed up with a contact to his PL. For example if someone was messing around with a knife, address the issue and report what you did to his PL. If two boys are fighting, one from two different patrols, address the issue and then notify both their PL's. I always notify the PL's when I do a SM Conference for example. Do I have to do this? No, but as a courtesy to the authority of the PL, it's how I have chosen to reinforce his leadership. This process constantly reenforces/supports the PL's position in his patrol in the eyes of the patrol members. If a PL is responsible for taking care of his boys, make sure he's #1 in the loop of communication or one will usurp his authority in front of the boys.

 

I had a situation last summer at summer camp. One patrol lost many of the older boys and a couple more through moving out of the area. They had two boys left and were offered an opportunity to dissolve the patrol and join up with others, they decided to stay together and pick up Webelos at the next Blue Gold. Then the day before camp, one of the boys broke his ankle. That left one boy, a Webelos boy in the patrol. He came, he camped, did his own cooking throughout the week, attended all the BrownSea classes, earned to merit badges. He knew it wasn't the best setup, missed his buddy, but the TG hung with him and "buddied up" with him for safety reasons. Did I make him join up with some other patrol for a week? Nope, HE decided to be his own patrol in spite of all the difficulty he faced. He's not the PL of the patrol, but he's so fired up about getting back to camp with is PL buddy and 6 new Webelos boys it's unbelievable. He's DC of a Wolf Den and I'm thinking he's going to cultivate those Cubbies throughout his scouting career and make his patrol one of the best in the long run. Leadership opportunities often times look like crisis in the beginning, but if left alone from outsiders can provide some good training for the boys. Until they ask for help, leave them alone to work it out.

 

Stosh

[Lisabob]

Stosh, I don't disagree but that's kind of not the point. What I wanted to know is whether the objections offered by other adult leaders in the troop, particularly the food cost issue, are reasonable.

 

I've been frustrated that I can't get people to look past that issue. I was kind of wondering if maybe I really just don't understand because I don't typically go on the camp outs (my son doesn't especially want his mom hovering around while he's off camping - and I can't blame him!). With regard to that specific issue, what I am hearing here from Brent, baschram, Mike, gwd, and SMT224 is that I'm not off-target and that this is just another example of adult excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny. I'm thinking of printing this off and taking it with me next time to show people that yes, it can indeed be done.

[SR540Beaver]

It is only on a very rare occasion that we will combine patrols and when we do, it never turns out well. So, we absolutely resist the temptation at all costs. My tend to run our patrols with a membership of 10 to 12, because on any given campout, we might have 2 to 4 who don't attnd for various reasons. By keeping the member number high, we are fairly assured that we will have a decent sized patrol on any given campout.....without "needing" to combine. That being said, my son was in a patrol at one time that lost a few members and/or had guys who were fair weather campers. On more than one occasion, he was part of a 2 to 3 man patrol. They actually enjoyed it more that way. We have troop provided tents and the bos sleep 2 to 3 to a tent. When the patrol was that small, they had one tent to set up and usually one pot to wash.

 

My suggestion is to resist combining patrols as it destroys the patrol method. If you find yourself doing this too often, then you need to combine patrols on a permanent basis. In other words, restructure. Go with a little bigger patrol size to allow for a workable size on outings when you have some not attending.

[Eagledad]

We've had patrols of 6 to 12 scouts depending on their stage of recruiting and loosing scouts for many years. We've had just two or three scouts Patrols on a campout many times and they do fine with food. I don't remember the causes, but we've had a patrol of one a couple times and those scout not only did fine, they did great.

 

Your parents just dont understand how important team building is for a patrol. Team building takes time (months) to build a pride of brotherhood and trust. Even if it is just two scouts, they are holding the patrol pride together everytime the troop is assembled. They still give the same patrol yell and hold up the same patrol flag. What ever it is that makes their patrol different from the others, they represent that difference and maintain it for all the other scouts. That pride is required for scouts to start respecting leadership.

 

The excuses you are hearing are parents concerned with the comfort of sons based on the comfort of themselves. But boys can handle a lot and they like handing a lot with pride. I was a little worried about the patrol of one, but he not only did OK, he was excited to prove that he could do it.

 

Life is an adventure and the troop is a great place to have that adventure because it is a safe place. If the scout was truly in danger, every scout and adult in the troop would jump in to help.

 

Of course you know me, if a patrol forgot to bring its food, they have to figure out what to do. The adults don't give any advice, we just stand by to hear what they are going to do. AND WE HAVE NEVER HAD A SCOUT GO HOME HUNGRY. They work it out. The other patrols help them out. And they learn well from the experience.

 

My older sons patrol brought food but forgot cooking utensils. So they cooked on the fire. They enjoyed that experience so much that the continued cooking on fires for most campouts after that. My son even taught all his New Scouts how to cook on a fire when he was the Troop Guide.

 

The boys can handle it because it is fun, its the parents who are weak and need some encouragement. They are taking away a lot of fun and adventure of your troop. If is important for them to experience their independence of letting their son having independence. Just when are they going to start to learn their son handle adversity, out when they get in the real world? The troop is the best place for a scout to experience adversity because it is safe and controlled. And, they have mentors who can guide them as they learn from their experiences. Now is the best and safest time to let these guys experience struggles of life. A patrol of two in nothing for the boys. The adults need to develop the confidence to allow the scouts to learn from it. We all have to do it because we are all parents. But we have to do it.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

 

[Mafaking]

 

Has society changed in that the world is now ad-hoc and thus scouting is just a reflection of a societal trends? My department consciously forms and reforms groups based on needs. I myself don't report to a single boss but to several. People associate and "congregate" at on-line forums instead of at the Moose Lodge or the neighborhood pub. Kids are driven to events and the kids in the neighborhood may or may not be the ones they associate with. Kids are in multiple assciations, scouts band, sports, clubs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to high-jack the thread. I got lost between ad hoc patrols and menu purchasing.

 

What we have done for food expenses is simple. The boys plan out the meals, do the shopping and pay for it with troop funds which they replace once they have collected the money from the patrol members. If they wish to have steak, baked potatoes, salad, and soda for dinner and it comes to $15/per member, that's the way it goes. If they want something that costs less (and is still nurishing) then that's fine too. The decisions are left up to the patrols. If the cost gets too high, the parents will regulate their boy's spending and the patrol will have to adjust for their members. The "bills" submitted to the troop vary from patrol to patrol because of their menus are all different. We emphasize THRIFTY when it comes to menu planning, but then we often use that to assist the boys the first time shopping when they hit the bacon section, to buy the $2 bacon instead of the $4 package. That's part of the learning process that goes along with the requirement. We haven't had a problem with this set up and when parents express concern about the costs, we relay that information to the PL of that boy's patrol. Every outing we go on, the fixed cost of the event is announced to the PL's at the PLC, $3 patch, $5 site registration, $? gas for the drivers, and then they have that information upon which they add the cost of food. The troop pays the total and then collects from the boys once they have the final tally for their patrol.

 

As a teaching aid, every year I use the spring camporee as an example where I come with my own food, having purchased all just for that occasion, and keep the food menu nurishing yet inexpensive. I try to keep the cost under $10 for the whole weekend, crackerbarrel, 2 breakfasts, 1 lunch and 1 supper. Then I compare my menus with the boys and explain that they could have had more and better meals using the power of bulk buying for the patrol. This process goes well every year helping the boys keep the costs down.

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

Mafaking,

 

I hear you. We have a troop literally just around the corner from us within easy walking distance, but we drive 25 miles one way to get to our troop.