Patrol Backpacking

[Hal_Crawford]

Barry:

Yes, a first class scout should know that stuff. Teenagers should always think things through the way adults do. News flash: they don't always do that. It is the scout leader's job to make sure they do.

 

Balance of guidance and experience: no argument-checking on the scouts plan is balancing their inexperience.

 

Boys believe they are immortal and do not know their own limitations. Do you think that maybe we need to make sure they have thought it all through?

 

G2SS only applies when it doesn't get in way of big picture? Are there other rules that we should only acknowledge when convenient?

 

I work in a field (performing arts) where people sometimes get hurt,die or cause others to get hurt of die because they do not believe the rules (even the laws of nature) apply to them. They believe that Art is above the rules. A nightclub full of people died because the club owner and a roadie with the band thought the rules (in this case building and life safety codes) did not apply. The rules got in the way of the "big picture" and over 100 people ended up in body bags.

 

Who took responsibility for the scouts that started the forest fire? Who didn't ask the questions? Someone else on this forum uses the Reagan phrase "Trust but Verify". Amen! We are the adults, we need to give our scouts freedom but we need to make sure that they have planned and prepared and they are ready to safely enjoy that freedom.

 

Hal

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

So Hal, are you saying the answer in your troop is NO?

 

Barry

[Hal_Crawford]

Barry:

This question has not come up in our troop. I am a ASM so it is not ultimately my call. That may change. I am not sure which way I would go if the this was proposed so I am very interested in how others resolve these issues. I feel that safety is extremely important and I take my responsibility for the scouts safety very seriously... more than I would have for my own son when he was a boy (he was mine to mess up, they aren't). If scouts asked tomorrow I would vote no based on where they are in terms of age and experience... a year from now I might feel differently but first I need to be convinced that they are ready and then the parents need to be convinced. I'm trying to lean into my discomfort here and understand how you deal with issues of safety and where BSA says supervision is required. The first rule in BSA Trek Safely is "qualified supervision". I am trying to figure out how to justify ignoring rule number one.

 

But what do you do when G2SS or other BSA policies/rules get in the way? The stove is one example, I am sure that there are others that seem to contradict the idea of patrol backpacking. I personally think the need to supervise the use of stoves is a chickens**t rule but that's not my call to make. BSA says that it's the rule and a scout (or scouter) is obedient. What kind of example do I set if I say "sure you are supposed to do this under adult supervision but I won't tell if you won't"?

 

On the up side, the scouts would hike faster and farther without having to constantly stop to allow adult leaders to catch up.

 

Hal

 

Hal

 

 

 

 

[NeilLup]

It certainly is permitted to have patrols hike and even camp on their own.

 

What has changed in the last 50 years that I have been in Scouting is not Scouting per se, nor the nature of boys. What has changed is the attitude of parents, the legal climate and the generally accepted standard of care for adult supervision.

 

I remember that, as a kid, my mother would say "get out of the house." I would be expected to go out and play. She would stay in the house. I remember a time when, at age 8, a friend of ours and I were taken to a swimming pool about 5 miles from our house. We were told to call home for a ride. We spent our money for goodies, etc. but being clever boys, we saved our dime to call home. We put the money into the phone, got the switchboard in our apartment and then lost connection. What to do? No money? We were in a drugstore but we were terrified to ask the huge, strange man behind the counter for help. So we walked home. My dad found us about a half mile from home and there was a certain number of words said but no punishment and no recrimination.

 

At the age of 6 -- first grade -- our daughter walked to school about 3/8 of a mile each day. Nothing thought about it. At the age of 10 -- fifth grade -- she and 3 buddies walked to the subway stop and took the subway across town to school each day. Again, nothing thought about it.

 

I contrast that with the battery ad I saw a few days ago where the 5 or 6 year old in a park wanders out of sight of the mother and she has a panic attack. No problem, though, she turns on her electronic locator and the telltale on the kid shows exactly where he is. Much hugging, crying by the mommy, etc.

 

I also note the GPS devices put on kids cars, kids cellphones, etc. which are electronic tattletales and permit a parent, at any moment, to log in and know exactly where their child is. Passively. No action required or even permitted on the part of the kid.

 

I believe that many kids are taught not to be self reliant, not to expect to be self reliant and self reliance certainly is not rewarded by many parents. Rather, it can be discouraged or even punished.

 

A sad consideration that each Scout leader must take into account in any activity but particularly in one with no adults present is what would happen if some unforseen problem occurs. How comfortable would one be explaining to parents or even in court why this trip was undertaken without adult supervision. Imagine that mommy with the telltale device serving on that jury.

 

A Scout is Brave and Scout leaders need to be Brave too. Each Scout leader needs to decide where his or her bravery line is drawn in permitting independent youth activities.

 

As was correctly said, the problem is not with the kids. It is with the adults.

 

I do believe that the suggestion of permission slips very explicitly stating that the trip will be undertaken without adult supervision is a very good idea. I might even have that sentence explicitly initialled by the parent to make totally sure that they understand and concur.

[Eagledad]

>>Each Scout leader needs to decide where his or her bravery line is drawn in permitting independent youth activities.

[Beavah]

Boys believe they are immortal and do not know their own limitations.

 

Yah, I've always thought this was bunk. Just a pithy but false statement by old folks who hold a prejudice against the young. As Eagledad says, it's far more common for adults not to know their own limitations, eh? Partly because our capacity for performance is decreasin', and we can't always still do what we did when we were 20. And partly because we mistake our competence in some area (like leading a business) with bein' competent in some other area (like leading children). Kids don't suffer from either misguided notion.

 

I'm with Eagledad. Competent, well-trained older scouts can run circles around the ordinary adult leader. If the unit's program adheres to the BSA's Rules & Regs, and teaches proficiency in skills, only recognizing advancement when the lads are truly proficient. Seven years in da field with us and an Eagle badge is a lot of time and effort, eh? If the lads aren't ready to solo before then, we're really not doin' anything worthwhile. At least in sports the adults aren't allowed on da field.

 

[speakin' of solo, do yeh know that we pilot-types routinely hand the keys of an AIRCRAFT to 16-year-olds to fly on their own? Oh the horrors!! I'll tell yeh, I'd much rather fly with that 16-year-old lad who supposedly thinks he's immortal than with many 50-year-old private pilots who think their 3-bounce-landings are still competent. Da 16 year old is sure to be more careful and cautious.]

 

I know a few troops where it's completely ordinary for patrols to backpack and camp on their own (yah, includin' lighting a stove ). I know a few crews that go even farther, eh? We've even featured crews in Boys' Life that participate in SAR operations. "Yah, yeh can go out independently in the backcountry on a search and rescue operation, but when yeh find and are treating the victim for serious injuries yeh can't light a stove" gets a bit silly, eh?

 

Our materials serve our mission, not vice versa. Da Sabbath, and the G2SS, was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. G2SS after all prohibits drivin' at night for anything other than short distances. Raise your hands if your unit is livin' up to that policy this month! Nobody?

 

Neil's got da right of it, I think. The struggle we're faced with is that by and large in suburban America we've become the land of the Fearful and the home of da Litigator. That change in American culture from self-reliance to reliance on da Nanny State does start to impact us, eh? And kids. The more we infantilize our youth, the more they'll behave like infants and need da constant protection and supervision of the parent/adult/Authority/Government. Yeh can decide that's what's best for kids' growth and character, or yeh can decide that's not what you want for the kids in your care and for the future of the country.

 

Then act accordingly. A Scouter is Brave.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Hal_Crawford]

Barry:

Arrogance is dangerous. You assume that because you have never seen your scouts do anything stupid that they are smarter then adults. You assume that because you let your scouts backpack alone that they are better trained. Better experienced to be sure but better trained? I read something recently that said that an expert may just be someone who's mistakes haven't caught up with them yet. Do you know for sure how close they may have come to disaster when you weren't there? Would they tell you? Really?

 

As a kid my parents gave me a lot of freedom. I walked to school by myself when I was 6... in Ankara, Turkey. When I was 11 or 12 I had a BB range in my basement that my friends and I used pretty much unsupervised (to some of their parents' horror). When I was a teen ager, I was free to travel on my own around Rio de Janeiro... not as dangerous a city then as it is now but it wasn't Disney World either. I can tell you that I did a some really stupid things as a teenager that nearly got me killed and no grown-up ever knew. I didn't want to tell them because I didn't want to them to limit my freedom. I have no doubts that my son (who is an Eagle scout and was generally a good kid) did things that would make me shudder. I doubt that your scouts would be any more open with you than I was with my parents.

 

Yes, you have been an SM; yes, you have had more sons than I. I respect that but it does not necessarily mean that your scouts are better trained than those in my troop or safe on their own. They might just be lucky.

 

I am working with a troop that for too long has thought that scouting meant car camping and a week of summer camp. That has changed in the last couple of years through the efforts of the scouts, another ASM and myself. We now do more backpacking and we had crew do a high adventure trek last summer. The SM is supportive of this change though he has not seen it as a priority in the past. He may be stepping down soon and I may be moving up. The troop has started to regain lost membership in the last year, perhaps because of these changes.

 

I have taken every training course offered short of Woodbadge and I have never heard anyone advocate sending scouts backpacking unsupervised. I'm not saying that makes it wrong. I am trying to figure out how to do this within the BSA rules. The devil is always in the details. I have asked specific questions which you have not answered. I'm trying to find the ground between "Go forth, you are the masters of your destiny" and "no-you'll put someone's eye out". I am trying to figure out how you and others deal with these issues. Just saying "training" is not enough. I am trying to understand how to give scouts this level of freedom and independence while still managing risk and ensuring safety. If I asked the same questions of scouts planning an outing I would want better answers. You haven't really been very helpful; defensive and critical of others is more like it.

 

I gather that you train the boys the best you can, ignore the parts of G2SS that are inconvenient, tell the parents its all good, then cross your fingers and pray you're right. Did I miss anything?

 

Hal

[Beavah]

Yah, easy there, Hal. I didn't really catch that you were tryin' to ask any of us how to run independent patrol treks, eh? More that you were fearful of 'em and arguin' against them. Maybe Eagledad and I both missed it. It's just that folks who really do run units with independent patrol outings think it's normal, and don't really see your worries and objections in the same light.

 

So let's keep this thread as a discussion of whether we should or not, and start a new one on "how to do it well."

 

B

 

[Hal_Crawford]

Point well taken. I apologize to both of you if I my questions were poorly worded or misconstrued as criticism. I still don't know if I would approve unsupervised backpacking but I am open to hear how others deal with the issues so that we can make informed decisions if and when the subject comes up.

 

Hal

[OldGreyEagle]

It may be a good idea to check what the Guide to Safe Scouting says about Leadership Requirements For Trips and Outings.

Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

(italics and underlining my idea, the whole section is printed in bold, making it BSA Policy)

Units that allow no adult trips are following the Guide to Safe Scouting, not ignoring it. No Scoutmaster is expected to allow "Any" patrol to do a no adult outing. The patrol presents the Scoutmaster with the outing plan. The scoutmaster either approves or rejects it. Now, if the scoutmaster rejects it (a harsh term for sure), I am sure the scoutmaster would explain what would be added to the plan to make it acceptable or at the very least, what the patrol needs to do for a plan to be approved. The Scoutmasters approval is the "Qualified Supervision" that is required

Categorically denying Patrol BackPacking Trips is actually against the Guide to Safe Scouting(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Eagledad]

>>Yah, easy there, Hal. I didn't really catch that you were tryin' to ask any of us how to run independent patrol treks, eh? More that you were fearful of 'em and arguin' against them. Maybe Eagledad and I both missed it. It's just that folks who really do run units with independent patrol outings think it's normal, and don't really see your worries and objections in the same light.

[Gonzo1]

One of our esteemed colleagues once said:

 

"Nothing prepares you for more in life than backpacking."

 

I'd say, backpack as a troop often, even the car camping trips, pack in, pack out, at least 1.5 to 2 miles so everyone gets accustomed to it by carrying their own gear on each campout. Then, when they're ready, encourage them and let them go as patrols.

 

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

I believe the "catch" here is where the BSA Guidelines refer to "backcountry" and "trek." I have spoken to our council's Program Director who informed me of the definitions of both these words. "Backcountry" refers to any area in which access to medical care is restricted (this would, therefore include canoe trips with limited public access, but not necessarily backpacking, if there were multiple easy access points to the trail). "Trek," he said, refers to any excursion of 5 days or more. He answered this in the context of patrol solo events, thus I accept this as a guileline covered by council insurance.

 

On the other hand (and mostly unrelated but what the original discussion was about), I will likely deny the patrol the opportunity to hike alone on this one, but not for any of the above reasons. It appears (not confirmed) that only 2 or 3 of the patrol will be able to attend this activity. I cannot justify the safety of an expedition with this number--I would expect 4 as a minimum. We will find out tonight.

 

Thank you all for your input. With what on the forum and the information I received from my PD, I feel I have the knowledge to make a decision of this matter now and in the future. I will work with the younger patrols to see that they are prepared and can plan for patrol camping in both the near and far future.

[gcnphkr]

Four is the minimum. That way if there is an injury, one can stay with the injured scout and two can go get help.

[Beavah]

He answered this in the context of patrol solo events, thus I accept this as a guileline covered by council insurance.

 

Yah, just to be clear for the umpteenth time, none of the G2SS is incorporated into any of the insurance master contracts, just like none of the other BSA documents like the Handbook are related to insurance cover either. They are all internal documents meant to be helpful, eh? They have nothing to do with insurance. If yeh teach a different method of knife-sharpening than what's in the Handbook, insurance doesn't magically go away.

 

The real issue for all of us is "what's reasonable?" for our boys and our community. We let out of shape adults with no first aid training at all lead boys in the "backcountry." Is it reasonable for a patrol of older, fit lads who all have completed Wilderness First Aid to do the same trip without the benefit of untrained adults?

 

I like your PD's definitions, BTW, but they're not really set in stone like that. The medical definition in particular is provin' to be a problem on the new form, because it makes most rural communities "backcountry" since there's a long response/evac time to trauma care. The LNT community's view of backcountry as greater than one day's travel from trailhead (travel outside of the day-use recreation areas) is probably one that makes more sense for thinkin' about this stuff.

 

Beavah