Patrol Backpacking

[Buffalo Skipper]

OK, spinning off the AT hike comments, I have a question about backpacking as a patrol. Patrols can hike and patrols can camp outside of troop activities (and without adult supervision). How far can this be taken as a patrol activity? If the "troop" were setting up a base camp, and different patrols were day hiking, could the older scouts (Venture patrol) do a backpack outing as a patrol?

[Narraticong]

If I can ever get my young troop of boys to that point, I'll believe I have been a success as a Scoutmaster. To have your boys be so self reliant is a wonderful thing.

 

But you always have to consider the parents. I have quickly learned in nearly two years as SM that not every parent believes in self relaince as much as I do! Some parents hover over their boys (someone coined the term "helicopter parents"). They just don't believe their little boy is safe or capable of taking care of himself. At first, even their son will likely believe that and will be too afraid to strike out on his own. But once they start to believe...they have the world by the tail!

 

All in good time with proper training, but turn them loose, I say!

[OldGreyEagle]

Hey BS, the answer is yes they can. They give the scoutmaster a plan the scoutmaster can approve and off they go, pure and simple

[gwd-scouter]

Buffalo - yes they can and ours have. Our older guys did their first backpack trip on their own without adults last spring. Everyone hiked in to the base camp area, the younger guys and leaders set up and did a fairly moderate day hike. The older guys set off on their own for one of the more adventurous hiking trails.

 

Because of their adventure, the younger guys are asking when they will be considered ready to take on an adult-free adventure.

 

This spring, those scouts that are ready will be taking about a 20-mile bike ride from our Scout Hut to our State Park. The leaders, new Scouts, and those that aren't up to the bike trek will be there setting up a base camp. Guys arriving on bikes will set up their own patrol site nearby.

 

Can't wait for that. It is exciting when your guys start taking off on their own. Our biggest challenge was getting the guys to believe we'd LET them do this.

 

Narraticong puts it well: "But once they start to believe...they have the world by the tail!"

[Eagledad]

You can go as far as you want really. Or troop sometimes looks for a place where the Older Scouts take off in one direction and the rest of the troop go the other direction and rendezvous somewhere in the middle to camp. We brake camp in one location and move to another.

 

Start small like letting your scouts out a mile or so away from your camp site on monthly campouts and have them meet you there. Next time do the same thing only have them carry their packs. Next let them out three miles away or just get creative. Look for opportunties for the scouts to hike without adults. Like summer camp, do the adults have to hike with the scouts to the dinning hall. Develop your scouts independence (and get the adults use to it) over time to where everyone is comfortable that the patrol can be left on their own.

 

We adults tend to limit our scouts by our fears of what could happen. So what you do is train and practice the skills necessary to ease the adults fears and push out the envelope of scout independence.

 

I had so much confidence in of our older scout groups that the two adults I sent with them to Philmont had no experience what so ever in backpacking except for the shakedowns. Both adults where in their 60s and the older scouts took very good care of them.

 

Training and experience, thats all you need to do. Its just that some folks automatically dont consider the idea so they dont even start training to get the experience. But it all adds more fun to the program.

 

Funny story, we dropped off the scouts to hike into camp one weekend and planned it so that they would walk into a simulated car accident. Our older scouts set up the mock accident with fake blood and broken bone and such. It all worked out well and everyone had fun. But two months later our caravan of cars drove up on a real accident while going to summer camp. Ever scout jumped out ready to help the injured. The accident was caused by slick roads from a recent rain and we adults were afraid another car would loose control into one of our 80 scouts. So we asked them to get back in the cars and you should have heard the bashing I took by not letting them help with the first-aid.

 

Ah, I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[gcnphkr]

I've wondered about this. GTSS and Trek Safely state:

 

All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the youth in his or her care. This adult supervisor is trained in and committed to compliance with the seven points of the BSA's Trek Safely procedure. One additional adult who is at least 18 years of age must also accompany the unit.

 

I don't know what constitutes a "trek" as opposed to a "hike" nor what is considered "backcountry". I assume that backcountry involves getting away from any motor vehicle access.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Thanks for the info, everyone!

What is happening is that we have 3 adults accompanying our troop on out "long" hike over MLK weekend. Our younger scouts will be running out of a base camp and our older scouts have planned a longer, thru hike on the Suwannee section of the Florida Trail. With only 3 adults, the scouters cannot break into 2 groups (as it would leave a group with only 1 and that violates YP). It is an easy trail, and I have hiked with these scouts on numerous occasions, and I have no doubt that they can handle it (older scouts are 14-17 years old). I am doing this more to save the weekend for the older scouts than anything else, but I believe it will be a real confidence booster for the scouts.

The PLC has always planned their hiking routes with close adult encouragement ("That trail is real steep, do you have enough time for that," or  "look at your trail heads...is that good logistics?" and such).  This is a new area which we have never hiked before, but it is real straight forward; the are unlike to encounter any substantial obstacles.  We looked at several routes, and they choose the one they wanted to do.  They choose a route which will end up in our base camp the morning we leave.

This weekend is traditional for our troop to have a long hike, and the olders scouts always go in a separate, longer, more challenging route--but always accompanied by 2 or 3 adults.  Several of our leaders have had serious health issues this year or have schedule conflicts.  Maybe this is a real blessing in disguise, setting up our older boys to have their own weekend. 

Should there be a separate permisson slip for these scouts recognizing that they will be on a patrol outing without direct adult supervision? And is there anything else about which we should be aware?

[Buffalo Skipper]

My understanding of the term "backcoutry" refers to areas off the trail. Any developed trail, as an example with set primitive campsites, would not be considered "backcountry."

 

Does anyone else agree (or disagree) with this interpretation?

[gcnphkr]

Perhaps wilderness areas would cover most of it. There may be developed trails but with restricted access and no developed campsites. Of course that covers most of the really cool backpacking areas in Arizona, but evidently nothing in Kansas or Iowa.

[Kudu]

Buffalo Skipper writes:

 

"How far can this be taken as a patrol activity?"

 

How FAR?

 

The furthest away one of our Patrols camped on a regular basis was 330 miles. The Patrol Leader was the son of the District Commissioner, and they often drove to the Adirondacks to backpack in the High Peaks, after I first got them addicted on a simple Troop backpacking trip there.

 

When I was in Scouts, my Patrol did the same thing every school vacation, but the High Peaks were only 190 miles away.

 

In both situations (and in less ambitious Patrol outings like those of our Troop's "Redskins" Patrol featured in Scouter.Com's print journal ten years ago) the Patrol also included friends who were not registered Scouts, and the boys got permission from their parents. It was not arranged through the Troop.

 

But LONG BEFORE they have a driver's license, we START Patrol backpacking on monthly camping trips at Scout camps with a mature Patrol camping Baden-Powell's distance of 300 feet.

 

Weak Patrols are proportionally closer to the adults.

 

Patrol Camping is all about the leadership skills that come from INDEPENDENCE, not distance. 300 feet can be high adventure, especially after dark.

 

EVERY Scout Camp has room for that, because if they backpack 300 feet away, the Patrol carries everything on its back and only the adults need to camp in an automobile accessible "basecamp" with the weak Patrols.

 

If you are on good terms with the Camp Ranger, ask him for suggestions on where to camp.

 

If you are NOT on good terms with the Camp Ranger, then GET on good terms with the Camp Ranger

 

Obviously, successful monthly Patrol backpacking trips of 300 feet can lead to 400 feet, then 1000 feet, then even a mile or two in some Scout camps as the Troop prepares for a "real" backpacking trip in a National Forest where the older Scout Patrol will split off from the basecamp.

 

Again, Patrol Camping is all about INDEPENDENCE, not distance.

 

Oh, and we call it "lightweight camping" or "wilderness camping" NOT backpacking

 

Kudu

 

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

Kudu,

 

Thanks for that info. I sure hope I can instill in our scouts the leadership and responsiblilty to handle patrol outings like the ones you described.

 

My use of the word "far" was intended to be figurative, rather than literal. I have full confidence in out Venture Patrol's ability to do the hike they have planned (29 miles in 2.5 days) on a recognized trail. My question is at what point does it cease to be a "patrol" activity and start being a "backcountry" activity (which requires adult supervision).

 

I dislike the necessity to act as a SM in a "legal" capacity. These type of activities are where I want to go with the troop as I continue to rebuild our program. I just wanted to ensure we are following the G2SS, and that all of our T's are crossed and I's are dotted.

[kraut-60]

Patrol Activity plan for SM review and possible approval/disaproval needs to layout where the patrol wants to go...whos going...when they're leaving and when they'll be back...what to bring/wear...why they feel they can function independantly of an adult leaders presence.

 

I have told my patrols that having all patrol members earn First Class rank will help me decide if they are capable of this increased level of trust...the partrol on its own.

 

The parents are/will be the toughest to convince of this practice.

Possibly the best way to achieve this is to be a trained and active SM who leads by example and develops youth leaders to be responsible.

 

When parents can see that their son(s) can effectively function with-out mom and dads close supervision to out-right hovering...they may be encouraged to trust their Scout to assume greater amounts of responsibility...while the unconvinced or outright hoverers simply wont let their son go along.

 

Boys who are denied participation by parents when the boy really wanted to go, could be seen as a reflection of an attractive and involving level of group oriented activity that kids dont want to miss out on.

[Hal_Crawford]

Question: How do you handle cooking on a patrol backpacking trek? G2SS requires adult supervision for use of stoves, LNT requires using only established fire rings which may or may not be available which leads us back to stoves as a preferred choice. Has anyone dealt with this? IMHO I would be more comfortable with well trained scouts using stoves than open fires but that is not G2SS compliant (did I really say "compliant"?).

 

A few years ago a group of scouts on an unsupervised wilderness survival overnight burned down a significant part of a national forest when their campfire became a forest fire. Thank God the scouts escaped but their council got hit with a tab of about 15 million for that mishap. Most of the money was the fire fighting bill from the state of Utah which has a law requiring those who start a fire to pay for fighting it.

 

For those who think that BSA overreacts to liability issues, isn't surprising that, given the above, they have not banned unsupervised patrol camping outright?

 

If I were considering a patrol backpacking plan I would want to the discuss all the things that Kraut-60 mentioned plus a discussion of emergency (what if...) plans. What level of first aid training do the scouts have, what are they carrying as a first aid kit, what are the "bail outs" along the trail, how would you get help if you needed it?

 

 

[Kudu]

Buffalo Skipper writes

 

"I sure hope I can instill in our scouts the leadership and responsibility to handle patrol outings like the ones you described."

 

Remember that when Patrol Camping was THE goal of Patrol Leader Training, leadership and responsibility were NOT viewed as qualities that could be taught directly. They were the indirect RESULT of Patrol outings, which was the whole point of Scouting being "a game, not a science."

 

The best Patrol Leader was the Scout who best displayed those qualities before being elected. If you build up to this slowly by encouraging your best Patrol to backpack 300 feet from the other Patrols every month as Baden-Powell recommended, these qualities of leadership and responsibility will emerge as a natural result of the outdoor program. If they picked the wrong Patrol Leader (as often happens with forced Patrol elections), it will become self-evident on these monthly "backpacking" trips.

 

kraut-60 writes:

 

"The parents are/will be the toughest to convince of this practice."

 

Only if Patrol Outings are perceived as something radically new and different. If so, I would agree with them. The thing to change is monthly campouts. If the parents are alarmed at your most mature Patrol backpacking 300 feet every month, then start with 50 feet.

 

kraut-60 writes:

 

"Possibly the best way to achieve this is to be a trained and active SM who leads by example and develops youth leaders to be responsible."

 

William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, the father of the BSA Patrol Method, designed a Patrol Leader Training Course in which the Scoutmaster leads by example and develops Patrol Leaders (not "youth leaders") to be responsible. The course is called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol," see:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Note that the Scoutmaster "leads by example" not by displaying responsibility from a distance, but by ACTUALLY LEADING this Green Bar Patrol. He is the Patrol Leader. The SPL is his Assistant Patrol Leader, and all of the Patrol Leaders are members of his Patrol.

 

This is "leading by example" OLD SCHOOL.

 

Course Outline: Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol

 

How to Lead a Patrol Meeting by actually holding Patrol Meetings --> How to use a Patrol Meeting to plan a Patrol Hike by actually planning a real hike in a real Patrol Meeting --> How to conduct a Patrol Hike by actually leading the Green Bar Patrol on a hike --> How to use a Patrol Meeting to plan a Patrol Campout by actually planning a real Patrol Campout in a real Patrol Meeting --> How to conduct a Patrol Campout by actually taking the Green Bar Patrol on a Patrol Campout.

 

Note that in this training scheme, Patrol Hikes prepare the Patrol for Patrol Campouts. A Patrol Overnight is really just an extended Patrol Hike.

 

You can do the same thing on monthly campouts at Scout camps, and you can do the same thing in National Forests, etc: Use Patrol Hikes to prepare for Patrol Overnights.

 

Every Patrol Hike should include at LEAST one meal. Start with "Sandwich Hikes" (a hike on which you don't want to be tied down by fire making and cooking). Then advance to "Chop Hikes," (a hike where fire building and/or cooking on a backpacking stove have a prominent place in the program).

 

The Green Bar Patrol Hike that YOU lead should be a Chop Hike, see:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/3rd.htm

 

kraut-60 writes:

 

"I have told my patrols that having all patrol members earn First Class rank will help me decide if they are capable of this increased level of trust...the patrol on its own."

 

Note that in Old School Scouting, First Class skills plus abstract indoor leadership training does not train a Patrol Leader how to manage risky behavior, in the same way that First Class swimming requirements plus abstract classroom leadership training does not train a BSA Lifeguard how to manage risky behavior. Both require SPECIFIC training and extensive practice under direct supervision.

 

As Ronald Reagan said "Trust but verify!"

 

The best way to verify is to be the Patrol Leader of your Patrol Leaders: PHYSICALLY demonstrate what a Patrol Leader does by leading two Patrol outings (a hike and an overnight) IN THE FLESH. Then see what they can do more than 50 feet away during monthly campouts.

 

Even if you NEVER get to the point where your most mature Patrol backpacks more than a football field away from the nearest adult, this in itself (plus Patrol Hikes that include at least one meal) will add an element of adventure to your Troop's outdoor program beyond anything that the Scouts in most units can now imagine.

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Eagledad]

>>What level of first aid training do the scouts have, what are they carrying as a first aid kit, what are the "bail outs" along the trail, how would you get help if you needed it?