Junior Assistant Scoutmaster (JASM)

[Stosh]

"What! You use one example to bash a whole program?"

 

One has to read more than one post. Take it in context. So far only Liz has made a strong positive support for JASM and it's not because of the program in as much as it's the maturity, and uniqueness of an exceptional Eagle scout. If every troop had such high quality youth wishing to make a difference I might change my mind, but I haven't experienced this except as an exception to the rule and not the rule itself.

 

"It is pretty obvious after reading your post that you dont have enough experience as a SM yet to even comment on JASMs."

 

When one doesn't have something to contribute, attack the person.

 

"Your troop is very young and hasnt had the time to mature enough for a JASM at this point."

 

58 years is not a young troop, small at this point, but not young. I have 2 boys working on Eagle projects as I write.

 

"You simply dont have the need yet."

 

You were doing well until the word "yet".

 

"But the time will come and when your troop does mature, and hopefully so do the adults, you will start to realize that this program is all about Scout Growth and nothing about proving your theories of the perfect troop to be sound."

 

I'll pass it on that there are those out there that think my adult corps to be immature. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that.

 

"See a true boy run troop is not what the boys do, but what the adults do."

 

Here's where the logic unravels....

 

"I read all your post about how great you are for letting the boys to run the program. Personally I see an adult describing a very restricted program where the boys may get to lead, but they have very little individual independence to grow."

 

Yep, I focus more on teamwork, community, servant leadership. A byproduct of that is individual maturity and the ability to lead more than just scout groups. And of course everyone's entitled to their opinions which

is why the forum exists, but I reserve that right for myself as well without being bashed in the process.

 

"Not that you are that bad, because I think most of us adults have been in your mindset in the early years ourselves. That is the nature of starting somewhere and learning from the mistakes. Hopefully you will humble yourself enough to learn that a true boy run troop is really more of the adults getting out of the way and removing obstacles of scout growth. It is different for every troop and different from one week to the next. Sheldonsmoms example is nothing more then adults just not yet understanding the needs of their scouts and her son. They sound like they are trying, but through there ignorance, they have created obstacles. It has nothing to do with JASMs."

 

And what would sheldonsmom's son do in that troop if it wasn't for this generic but useless position? He can't be a troop officer, he can't be a PL, he can't be any real functioning leader in the troop. No thanks. It doesn't take a 17 year-old to figure out he's been put out to pasture. I think for the scouts that don't want to lead, this would be a great POR. We don't have boys in the troop that don't want to lead, most of them have quit.

 

"It doesnt matter what you call it, when a boy starts to think and act more mature, he needs to be in an environment where he has the freedom to grow. If that is the position of doing what the SM normally does, then hopefully the SM has the confidence and wisdom to step out of the way and encourage to let that happen. Pride is a very big obstacle. What you call the scout at that point is irrelevant. But if the SM did put the JASM label on it, it doesnt take away from the nobility of the SMs or courage of the scout progress forward into the unknown. It just happen to be the label at the moment. Likely your pride won't allow you to use that label, but what every you choose to call it, it will still be an opportunity for the scout to grow."

 

I have that position already, it's called SPL. Just as the SM shouldn't be interfering in the leadership of the SPL, adding a JASM into the mix isn't all that functionally helpful.

 

"So go ahead and bash away. But for those of us who have a been there and done that t-shirt, we know your day is coming. We just wonder how much humility and courage you will have to be a servant and get out of the way. I know, I know, you think have already passed that test. We all thought that. But even the adults have to continue to grow.

 

I love this scouting stuff."

 

One should then learn this scouting stuff. Starting with "Helpful, courteous, kind,"

 

It is obvious that without a full grasp of multiple posts over time, cherry picking posts will not really provide any real contribution in context.

 

My arrogance, pride and the fact that I don't have a t-shirt with "been there, done that" on it isn't going to provide the insight that 40 years of youth work in multiple organizations from YMCA, to churches, to GSA, to BSA in Cubbing (8 years), Scouting (17 years), Venturing (9 years) and professional (2 years). When one speaks from experience on a process that doesn't really work all that well, it's not bashing. Occasionally it works, occasionally it doesn't, but one can be reasonably sure that the BSA approach to JASM's is sketchy at best, or tieknotsinlike50different wouldn't have asked the question, "what are they supposed to be doing?" and over the course of many posts, the jury is still pretty much out, doesn't bode well for a strong consensus of it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

So, feel free to hit the ignore button. In the mean time, I have to prepare my presentation for U of Scouting on how to set up a boy-led patrol method unit. Obviously there are those who recognize the benefits of the approach I have allowed in this troop. That and the fact that this troop in the rookie tenure of an "arrogant, misguided SM", grow from 6 to 30+ boys.

 

The Council asked me to take over this troop for a reason. They seemed to be very pleased with the results.

 

Stosh

 

[Stosh]

Oh, and by the way, my t-shirt reads: "Don't be making the same mistakes you see others making." It's what I teach my boys. While it his advantageous to learn from one's own mistakes, it's even a wiser man who learns as well from the mistakes of others. Being observant used to be a prized skill of scouting in the early years.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Yah, jblake, in case yeh didn't catch it, you just did to Eagledad what others were doin' to you, eh?

 

Feedback is a gift, mate. Eagledad wasn't attacking you personally. He was commenting on what he was "hearing" in your posts, and he was talkin' about your program ideas. Not about you, eh? There's a difference.

 

Take that feedback for what it's worth. If it's not worth anything to yeh now, store it away and perhaps you'll find it's worth more down the road. If nothin' else, should you ever become a commissioner, it will give yeh insight into how other successful troops may choose to do things.

 

Beavah

 

[Kudu]

When Scouters describe Scouting practices used back in the days when EVERY red-blooded American boy WANTED to be a BOY SCOUT, Barry "Eagledad" often rushes in with his "Been There, Done That" T-shirt and accuses this person (whom he does NOT know in "real life") of disturbing psychological traits, presumably to discourage other readers from experimenting with methods that once worked with MILLIONS of Scouts.

 

This unScout-like form of personal attack is called "projection:" to accuse other people of our own secret passions, to which we are blind.

 

Personal attacks always say more about person who makes them than the person being "bashed."

 

Kudu

 

[Gold Winger]

"Personal attacks always say more about person who makes them than the person being "bashed.""

 

That goes along with the idea that men who don't care for homosexuals are repressed homosexuals.

 

Similarly, since I don't like soccer, I am really a soccer player but just don't realize it.

[Kudu]

"Personal attacks always say more about person who makes them than the person being "bashed.""

 

Gold Winger writes:

 

"Similarly, since I don't like soccer, I am really a soccer player but just don't realize it."

 

GW,

 

Projection in personal attacks is accusing an individual you don't know of something that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

 

So if you rush into a Scouting discussion to discredit Stosh's views about JASMs by accusing him of being a soccer player, then yeah, you have some serious soccer issues :-/

 

Kudu

[Stosh]

If it is concluded that I have attached someone and instead of commenting on the issues at hand, I offer an apology. However, do take Beavah's comments seriously and although I have missed his emphasis, I apologize to him as well. I do understand the problems to the written word vs. the spoken word.

 

I do find it frustrating that the first assumption on a comment is always assumed in the negative. Just because I say I like chocolate ice cream doesn't mean I'm bashing vanilla, yet very often on this forum that's the meaning being concluded. Unfortunately for those posting as such, it means that because I like chocolate and my boys like chocolate, we're not going to be all that excited about vanilla and it torques their shorts. If there are those who like vanilla and won't change, fine. No problem. I'm happy for them. If there are those who like vanilla but would like to try chocolate, fine, it might be something that will benefit their program, great. What happens when there's a group of boys out there that want chocolate and all the leaders are vanilla? or vise versa?

 

But please don't expect me to be a cheerleader for vanilla when I prefer chocolate, and don't dump assumptions on me that because I like chocolate that I think vanilla isn't as good. For me it isn't, but there are plenty out there that disagree, and that's okay. In my situation, the DE was looking for a chocolate leader to go with a chocolate unit. It's working out very well, but your mileage may vary.

 

Stosh

 

[Nike]

Stosh,

 

Sounds like your group is hitting on all cylinders, and you and the boys are having a fabulous time. Perhaps as your troop grows, you and the CC can separate the MC/ASMs into two distinct groups with two distinct missions. The ASMs work directly with the boys, day in day out, and the MCs deal with adult level stuff that comes as troops get larger, mostly managing the adults. As an MC, I value the SM's participation on the Troop Committee as essential. He sees things I don't. (I'm buried in popcorn. ) He has a perspective I don't and is closer to the boys. I also believe that the MCs need to participate in the Troop, be around, be known: BORs should not be the first time a Scout ever sees an MC.

 

As for JASM, someday you may find yourself with JASM material, but they are rare. If you find you have one, you can use him as your Sergeant Major, your special projects guy. I suppose the best test for a JASM is if I have to look twice and see the "J", since the boy should really be working and acting like an ASM.

 

So, Happy Scouting!

 

 

 

[ChiefThundercloud]

I have two JASMs. That position is reserved for those Scouts who have been SPL and are 16+ years old. I use my JASMs for a specific purpose, to assist the SPL. Who better to give guidance and help with meeting control than an experienced SPL?

 

If I see the SPL having difficulty with a situation, I ask my JASMs to go have a discussion with the young man. Between the three boys, they almost always sort things out without me getting involved.

 

We don't view the position of JASM as "a place for the SPL to go to die." It's a respected position. These boys have a place of honor on the "JASM Couch"

[SR540Beaver]

Just a disclaimer here. It was more or less suggested earlier that my view was JASM was a parking place to send a boy who is winding down. I never said that. My point was that JASM is a position of further leadership development to offer an older boy (16+) boy as an additional challenge. These guys are at a different level in there life and scout career and in most cases, can not be there as much as he should in the SPL or PL position. The point is, instead of just sitting him aside because he could only be there 40 or 50% of the time and couldn't fulfill his duties as SPL or PL, find a leadership position that would fit his schedule. That would be JASM. They would do the same types of work that an ASM would. The desired person to serve as in the 3rd ASM position for a Jambo troop is an 18 to 21 year old. This is by design. Likewise, a JASM can serve as a bridge between adults and youth.

[Chucker75]

WOW!

 

Ill tack this on the end. As the founding Member of a troop that started 12 years ago with three adults and three boys we never started out with SM /ASM and Committee. The necessity of thee situation dictated that everyone wear multiple hats. So every parent in the Troop is a member of the Committee (just like the PTA) and if they want to be active we put them in a shirt. Some shirts have ASM patches and others have Committee Member on them.

 

As the Committee Chair, I camp with the Troop all the time and usually spend time keeping new parents from trying to help at inappropriate times. I know its not BSA guidelines but it works.

 

I was reading the thread because we have a scout who is 17 and just sat for his Eagle Board (when approved he will be our thirteenth). I think that he is a perfect candidate for this position, it will just be a case of exploring and discussing with him on when to help and when to let them figure things out.

 

On another note earlier up in the thread, I read about scouts going out on overnighters with out adult supervision. Is this old time or new age scouting?

 

What are the legal ramifications when little Johnny breaks an ankle tripping over a tree stump on a hike and the litigious parents find out there was no adults present.

 

Who gets sued?

 

Just wondering

 

Chuck (CC Tr.9)

 

[Eagledad]

>>But please don't expect me to be a cheerleader for vanilla when I prefer chocolate, and don't dump assumptions on me that because I like chocolate that I think vanilla isn't as good.

[asm 411]

"What are the legal ramifications when little Johnny breaks an ankle tripping over a tree stump on a hike and the litigious parents find out there was no adults present."

 

I would assume that if the protocol for a patrol outing, which is allowed according to the BSA documention including overnight camping, is followed including a plan approved by the Scoutmaster then the BSA insurance should cover the outing.

 

As for me I believe that an "adult free" patrol outing needs to be well published and have signed permission slips so all concerned know that the Scouts will be working in an adult free environment.

 

Since I have been with our troop only one such event happened with older Scouts in a Scouts backyard. His parents were in the house and available if need be. Not much in the way of "adult free" if you ask me.

 

[Gold Winger]

Gee, what happens if Johnny is playing pick up football and breaks his leg? I guess that's why there are few pick-up games anymore. Do-do happens.

 

Unless the PL did something like have the other boys jump on Johnny's leg, we should all say, "That's life." Gives the other boys a chance to practice first aid and emergency management. Kinda like what the Boy Scouts are famous for, isn't it?

[dellis76]

I was a JASM when I was young. It was a great time for me. It was to me a stepping stone to becomeing an assistant scoutmaster. It was also a time of more adult responsibilities in the troop. I am now a 49 year old unit commissioner and I miss the days of being a JASM.