Junior Assistant Scoutmaster (JASM)

[Stosh]

I'll accept JASM's as the equivalent to an SPL/ASPL retirement home. If he's too busy to be productive anymore because of girlfriends, cars and sports, then put him in a venture patrol of semi-interested, semi-retired troop officers and let them sit out their remaining years without any commitment to the troop. Some Eagle Scouts who have turned 18 are often kept on the roster as ASM's for years without ever seeing them so that they can retain some tenure or senority when they finally have a boy and enroll him in Tigers. They can then waltz into the CM's office and tell him/her how wonderful they are for being on the BSA roster since first grade and made AOL, and Eagle and haven't done one thing for BSA for the past 15 years except have a kid and enroll him in Tigers. I say, give him a useless patch so he won't be embarassed by his on-again, off-again attenance. Keep his record looking good. After all his self-esteem may suffer and we don't want our Eagle Scouts to think they aren't an important part of BSA when they doing nothing.

 

If I have non-functioning ASM's they get shuffled off to Buffalo, same with the non-functioning JASM's.

 

If one wishes to mentor, guide, and lead, take a leadership position, don't sit around and back-seat drive someone else. If he's been there, done that and has no interest in continuing to serve the unit, then their usefulness is over. Sorry, but everyone has a functional part of the team and if someone's not going to hold up their end, or worse yet, someone has to carry a double load because of someone else's inactivity, then it's time to be honest about it and have that person stay home.

 

Scouting is service and leadership, use it or lose it. If the Eagle patch means the scout has reached the apex of scouting and he can now sit back and enjoy his retirement, sorry not in my troop. If one does not roll up their sleeves and lead these boys they can find some other activity to fill their time. If one is the best, then be the best, but if one is not interested in the boys, the boys will quickly become not interested in them as well. Leadership is a functional two-way street. If the phrase is more than just words "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle," then that has to be fulfilled out every day for that to actually mean anything.

 

Either I'm a SM or I'm a Former SM, depending on my functionality. The same applies to being an Eagle. I vaguely remember something in the ECOH that references an obligation to give back to Scouting what Scouting has given them.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I really haven't got much time for retired scouts in my troop. I've "been there and done that" for 30 years. The Eagles in the troop can cough up a couple of years until they turn 18 and age out. Every year I start all over from scratch with my NSP and give them the same quality of my time as I did all the years previously. When I retire, I'll have the honesty to tell my boys.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

"As opposed to "essential.""

 

Hey, I just learned something. "made up" is the antonym of "essential." Interesting.

[SR540Beaver]

jblake,

 

Who mentioned retired scouts just taking up space? You, not me. Few troops have any need for guys who want to do nothing. They are a detriment to the whole process. As I said in my post to Kudu, what do you do with a boy who has served in leadership and attained Eagle and WANTS to remain active in scouting, but the added responsibilities of being a young man preclude him from being as active as he once was? Stick him in a corner and say thanks but no thanks? Tell him give me all or give me nothing? We are only interested in scouts below 16? If he has something to contribute and has the desire, put him to work. Give him a new challenge.

[Stosh]

What do you do with an Eagle who has done everything?

 

PL of the Venture Patrol so he can plan out the next great adventure.

 

Take another shot at SPL to train up new PL's to do their job even better.

 

PL of the NSP so these new scouts have a chance to learn from the best.

 

TG so that the scope of influence can be directly felt by the whole troop.

 

Chaplain Aide so that the 12th Law is taken very seriously instead of blown off as is most often the case.

 

Quartermaster so that the troop trailer and storage area can now be truly inventoried and fundraisers can be started to fill in the missing equipment.

 

Bugler, now there's a new challenge. Not just taps, but the whole shebang!

 

Instructor to teach not only advancement, but also TLT and other important classes needed by the boys.

 

OA Rep? Sure, maybe add to that an officer in the OA structure as well.

 

And so going back to the original post... what is the JASM supposed to do? It would appear that not only do most people not know, those who have offered insight have shown that it has normally been the scout himself who has defined the position and on his own initiative developed something to do with it. Unfortunately this is an exception to the rule and not the rule itself.

 

"We have a JASM. It works well for us, but I think that's largely because we have a very remarkable young man in the role." The rest of the posts seem to only offer suggestions as to what a JASM might be, but not what BSA expects them to be.

 

Assistants to the Patrol guides? In a boy-led, patrol-method troop, there's a position with totally nothing to do. We don't have patrol guides because the PL's lead the patrols and if they need guidance they have the SPL to refer to. To turn a youth into a semi-adult postion in the boy-led, patrol-method program pretty much assigns him to an assistantship to a do-nothing position.

 

Seriously! What position in your troop couldn't be done better with a committed Eagle functioning in that position? Not just because he needs POR advancement time, but because he has the leadership skills to really do the job and do it right! Now, try to find a committed Eagle scout with a JASM patch on his sleeve in your council... Give it a try, all scouts like to do a good scavenger hunt now and then. Liz has hers, what about the rest of us?

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Yah, I've sorta lost da thread. I think folks are talkin' about different things, perhaps?

 

Jblake, what do your adult ASMs do?

 

What do you do as SM?

 

I reckon a capable and experienced youth age 16-17, Eagle or not, can do almost any of those things, eh?

 

That's the job of JASM. Be a troop adult leader, in all but age and signatures.

 

I agree, there's other ways to use and challenge such lads, like havin' 'em lead a Venture Patrol. Just depends on the lad and on the nature of the troop, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

"Jblake, what do your adult ASMs do?"

 

As boy-led, patrol-method?

 

1st ASM does advancement records and keeps me informed of the boy's advancement status. The Scribe turns in patrol reports to him if any advancement has been fulfilled. Scribes work with PL's to make sure accurate records are being filled out each meeting. The adult only maintains a record for the troop that the adults refer to for BOR's etc. It also doubles as a backup to the boy's records they maintain in the troop. JASM would duplicate the Scribe position, would be better as Scribe.

 

2nd ASM does fundraising functions such as popcorn person, etc. Finds other funraising opportunities for the boys should they request that information or will research ideas the boys may be interested in should they ask. JASM would be bored to tears with this one. The ASM is... :^)

 

3rd ASM resource go-to person with training when the boys request it. Provides and explains any educational resources and makes it available to the boys. Keeps current MB counselor listings and orders materials so when the boys ask it's available. JASM would be limited in his duties here. Librarian and Instructor do most of this work already.

 

4th ASM assists outings by lining up transportation and does the permits and other adult expected aspects of outings. JASM won't find this very exciting to say the least.

 

All ASM's, SM, CC and Committee are MB counselors as well. JASM can't do MB's.

 

"What do you do as SM?"

 

I am the #1 adult support liason for the boys. I am the first contact the SPL has with the adult corps of the unit. My job is to, when requested, assist the SPL to do his job or connect him up to the necessary adult to assist him in finding the specific area of expertise of the ASM. I shadow the SPL. JASM would do better being the SPL.

 

"I reckon a capable and experienced youth age 16-17, Eagle or not, can do almost any of those things, eh?

 

That's the job of JASM. Be a troop adult leader, in all but age and signatures."

 

And that's my point exactly, my adults do very little except the age specific/signature kinds of things. That would mean the JASM does even less than very little. The JASM would only duplicate a part time job if at all, because until asked, these adults do very little if anything.

 

In my situation of boy-led, patrol-method there is really no need for anyone to be a JASM. If the position was filled, it would be filled by a boy trying to do the part of an ASM job that only an adult can do. It can't happen.

 

I would rather have him be the venture patrol PL and plan out great trips, or organize summer camp for the boys as ASPL in charge of activities, or train others as Instructor, or anyone of a ton of other things that would be a lot more fun than hanging out with the adults as they do nothing. If he really enjoyed DC? Well then, go back and be a DC. With the Eagle on his shirt, he get's to pick what he wants to do not because he needs advancement, but he would really have a great time doing it. Scouting is supposed to be fun, ya know! :^)

 

I would think that what one person is referring to as JASM I am referring to as ASPL responsible for specific tasks. There's nothing that says one can't have an ASPL in charge of advancement, or training, or fundraising. To me these ASPL positions are valid in the boy-led, patrol-method model whereas doing what the adults do isn't.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"1st ASM does advancement records and keeps me informed of the boy's advancement status."

 

That looks like a committee job to me.

 

"2nd ASM does fundraising functions such as popcorn person, etc. Finds other funraising opportunities for the boys should they request that information or will research ideas the boys may be interested in should they ask."

 

Fundraising is a committee job, not ASM.

 

" Provides and explains any educational resources and makes it available to the boys. Keeps current MB counselor listings and orders materials so when the boys ask it's available."

 

Sounds like more committee work to me.

 

"4th ASM assists outings by lining up transportation and does the permits and other adult expected aspects of outings."

 

Yet, another committee task.

 

Maybe if your ASMs did their jobs as ASM instead of usurping committee functions, you might find something for a JASM to do.

 

What is the function of an ASM? To assist the SM in his job. What's an SM's primary function? To teach leadership. Sounds like a JASM could do that.

 

At the risk of sounding like BeeDubya, it's all in the book.

 

[Stosh]

Yep, I don't run by the book which shouldn't come as a surprise to any on the forum. All my "ASM's" are basically committee members and run the committee and all my boys pretty much (99%) run the program. So, until I need an "ASM" we put "ASM" on their shirt so they have a reason to wear a tan shirt. JASM's like "ASM's" are non-functional in our troop so we don't need them either.

 

Training? All done by the boys wearing for real, functional POR patches, from the bottom up. SM teaches SPL, SPL teaches PL's and ASPL's, PL's teach their patrols, ASPL's teach troop officers. More ASPL's might be added as needed as the troop expands. So far we have only 4 patrols and so only one ASPL is needed to support the 3 functional troop officers. The SPL does well supporting the 4 PL's and one ASPL. The SPL is currently looking over the troop to try and groom a functional Scribe to move into the troop corps, but so far the first two choices declined because of the amount of work involved relative to their need to first work on FC advancement. My boys know that Scribe does more than take attendance and then screw around for the rest of the meeting. Because of our shortage of older scouts, I do "allow leeway" on the part of the "ASM's" to be more involved temporarily until the boys get better organized. We have 4 boys FC or above and 3 of NSP's. It's pretty hard to convince a boy that was a Webelos 6 months ago it is time to step up to QM or Scribe of a rapidly growing troop. I have 3 boys who have stepped up to PL in that time, but troop officers are taking longer because of the longer learning curve.

 

So, how then will more ASM's benefit the troop? Boys say they don't need them. I agree. How will a JASM benefit the troop? Boys say they don't need them. I agree. When the boys come up with even a lame excuse to have a JASM, we'll consider it, but I'm not seeing anyone beating down my door with anything even remotely lame at this point.

 

So, explain to me. If I already have the boys doing what in most troops is traditionally the work of the ASM's, why do I need them except for signatures, 2-deep, and age requirements?

 

Stosh

 

[Gold Winger]

So what you're running is "Stosh Scouts of Stoshland" and not a Boy Scout troop.

[Stosh]

It isn't helpful to progress a discussion when all one has as a basis for debate is the posting of personal attacks.

 

No, I'm not running anything, but my boys are. Now, if there are those who can't wrap their minds around such a concept, so be it. Not my problem. My boys prefer it that way, and in my book that's all that counts. As far as BSA goes, my boys are as well versed in pre-1970 BSA material as they are in post-1970 BSA material. Yes, a few of them have attended NYLT training. I have 3 WB trained leaders (all post 2000 graduates) I'm the only WB pre-2000. I have 3 others on staff that have had multiple years of SM experience. Experience? I can offer 7 years as a registered Cub leader, 17 years registered Boy Scout leader, 2 years as Explorer leader and 9 years as Venturing leader. Oh, and yes, I was trained in every aspect of scouting along the way. Currently have the U of Scouting Masters Degree and am working on a Doctorate of Scouting at the present time.

 

So we (both youth and adult) do know the program, inside and out, but we also have a vision of what it's going to take to produce excellent leaders both within BSA and in the world in which they will live.

 

Boy-led, patrol-method All of us from the COH down to the newest scout that just joined up last week are all on the same page.

 

So if that makes it Stosh Scouts from Stoshland. Yep, I can live with that, too. :^)

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

It isn't helpful to progress a discussion when all one has as a basis for debate is the posting of personal attacks.

 

No personal attack, just a comment that you don't seem be running a Boy Scout program. ASMs doing committee jobs. Do you even have a committee? That doesn't sound like anyone is paying attention to BSA.

 

What do you do with an Eagle who has done everything?

 

PL of the Venture Patrol so he can plan out the next great adventure.

 

Take another shot at SPL to train up new PL's to do their job even better.

 

PL of the NSP so these new scouts have a chance to learn from the best

 

PL of the NSP? How does he become the PL of the NSP? Just show up and say, "Hi guys, I'm your new PL.

 

Same goes for PL of the Venture patrol. Just show up and say, "Hi, I'm an Eagle, I'm your new PL"?

 

What about all those other positions? Those are appointed by the SPL. What if the SPL doesn't want him as QM or Chaplain's Aide?

 

The more you talk, the more it sounds like Stosh Scouts of Stoshland are controlled by the whims of Stosh.

[Stosh]

"No personal attack, just a comment that you don't seem be running a Boy Scout program. ASMs doing committee jobs. Do you even have a committee? That doesn't sound like anyone is paying attention to BSA."

 

Wouldn't it be a little more scout-like to just say, "it doesn't seem like one is running a Boy Scout program," rather than resorting to the use of sarcasm?

 

As SM, I have no sway on how the committee is run. That's the concern/arena of the CC. If he ever joins the forum, he'd be able to address that issue. I'm the SM. What the committee does isn't my concern.

 

"PL of the NSP? How does he become the PL of the NSP? Just show up and say, "Hi guys, I'm your new PL."

 

Nope, when the Webelos boys cross over and are introduced to the troop, the Eagle Scout can offer his service as a PL if the boys would like him to do that. The first decision a new boy to the unit must make is what patrol he would like to be in. Each patrol recruits on it's own. If an Eagle wishes to take the leadership initiative to form a new patrol, it's ok in my book.

 

 

"Same goes for PL of the Venture patrol. Just show up and say, "Hi, I'm an Eagle, I'm your new PL"? "

 

Nope, but he might recruit all his buddies out of the other patrols that want to form a new venture patrol and he is the PL until the patrol decides otherwise.

 

"What about all those other positions? Those are appointed by the SPL. What if the SPL doesn't want him as QM or Chaplain's Aide?"

 

Then the SPL doesn't ask him to be the QM or the Chaplain's Aide. I have found over the years that most SPL's will want Eagle experience to fill those positions. If he doesn't then it doesn't happen. The boys are making the decisions.

 

"The more you talk, the more it sounds like Stosh Scouts of Stoshland are controlled by the whims of Stosh."

 

And the more posts that take this position, the more I find it difficult that the concept of boy-led isn't coming through my posts.

 

Please try and explain to me how the conclusion: "whims of Stosh" is drawn from boy-led, boy-decided, boy-guided, boy-controled, etc.

 

I guess the only conclusion can draw from such an observation is:

 

1) the person making the post is dumber than a box of rocks, or

2) they are being contrary just to flame the discussion, or

3) they truly don't understand and would eventually like to know more.

 

Right now, #3 is coming in as a distant 3rd. :^)

 

Stosh

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"As SM, I have no sway on how the committee is run. That's the concern/arena of the CC. If he ever joins the forum, he'd be able to address that issue. I'm the SM. What the committee does isn't my concern."

 

What committee? Most of the committee functions are being handled by ASMs.

 

You can say what you will but it really doesn't sound like you're running a Boy Scout program.

[Stosh]

I would think this process would be rather obvious, but I'll explain it anyway:

 

In a small troop, there's a lot of people doing "double duty". I have my adults sometimes doing committee work as needed, they teach MB's occasionally as needed (2 of my ASM/MC's are doing Pioneering MB for the boys right now, so that means I'm down two ASM's and I'll let my CC know he's down 2 committee members too), they are ASM's on occasion, sometimes they are 2nd person in 2-deep (don't need to be MC or ASM to do that), sometimes they give rides just like any other parent (We still allow them to wear their ASM shirts even when they aren't doing ASM things, the boys think it's important that the adults set a good example by wearing a uniform shirt). It's kinda like, what the boys request help on, we as adults figure out how to provide it.

 

But in a small troop, at meal time my SPL functions as a Chaplain's Aid because we don't have a boy wearing that patch and my ASPL functions as the TG because there's not a need for a full-time TG at this point, and over the past month we've had 3 different boys trying out Scribe to see if they would like to take on that responsibility. My PL's are all Instructors because we don't have anyone wearing that patch, but the work has to be done anyway. My ASPL/TG borrowed by bugle the other day, wants to practice up on it to see if he can play it (didn't ask for the patch, just the bugle and bugle book). A boy asked to be a DC, great got him a patch, he did the on-line Fast Start, and Monday he starts the DC 3 hr training. Gee, he's still an APL in his patrol. One boy really likes his patrol so he doesn't want to be the QM and move into the Troop Corps group of boys, so instead he's staying a member of his patrol, but does all the QM duties anyway. By the way, the QM not being part of a patrol and being part of the troop officer corps instead was the boys' idea, not the whim of the SM.

 

I guess with 20 boys, and 7 active adults, I haven't got enough personnel to fill all the positions, so naturally everyone concludes that I must not be running an Official Boy Scouts of America Program. Makes sense to me. Welcome to the Official Stosh Scouts of Stoshland where everyone works together smoothly even if they don't have an official patch on their shirt. Until the boys decide differently, I guess it's going to be "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" I'll chat with my DE this weekend at the Camporee to see if I can get my charter revoked.

 

Stosh

 

[OldGreyEagle]

If 60 is the new 40, then GoldWinger must be the new BobWhite.... Geez, never saw THAT comming

 

Stosh, Committee Members may wear uniforms