Patrol Camping. Adults needed?

[croushorn]

Kudu once and for all, your schtick has gotten really old, this is 2008 and what was done prior to 1972 isnt at all relevant anymore. So quit whining and get off it, youre no Yoda. Go find a hobby.

 

BW: you who continually bangs us over the head to follow the BSA regs and finds fault with all who dont follow the regs to the T, tell me where in this great Scouting training program that I am to follow so closely does it tell me how to deal with the inquiry from a patrol that wants to do their own thing? It wasnt in my training, it isnt detailed in the SM handbook, so, oh wise know it all, how do I deal with it? Have YOU ever been a direct leader that did?

 

Stosh since according to you, your SPL-less method is the best way to run a troop, so tell me: do your patrols go and do this? If so, how? Not another subjective lesson that a SM worth his weight would be training them how to do it, or get out of the way and let someone who will, tell me how your perfect patrols do it? And if so, how does it go? How do you deal with the parents? How do you deal with the safety of YOUR boys?

 

Thank you BP! Agreed with Nikes idea, that will give us plenty of time to see how council will deal with it. From the protective side, I hate to talk it up to the guys though and have council shoot it down I will try and see what happens. But unlike many here who love to type about their great conquests, Im one of the few that actually do. Im not saying I dont trust my guys, I have concerns about trusting the rest of the world with MY guys. And still dont know of any camping in our area that will take a group of teens without an adult BUT I WILL ASK!! I am very proud of my guys and their accomplishments, would take any as my own; if you all get hung up on wedgies, then you obviously miss the point, just like they missed the point GW made about trading punches.

 

Good gosh, enough theory and preaching lets hear some real experiences.

 

Loud Snoring Bear is what it translates to BTW, my vigil name.

 

[gcnphkr]

BW,

 

I absolutely believe that patrols can camp without adults. The problem is that both the G2SS and the Tour Permit have statements that say something else. Additionally we have Council P&Ps that tell me Tour Permits must be filed for all activities outside of the home meeting places. The Council wants a Tour Permit on file. There is not effective method to do this for a Patrol. I asked what I should do. I was given an answer that makes the Council happy in that it gets the permit and allows my patrols to go camping. Simply telling the scouts to go ahead and not worry about a Tour Permit is not a solution unless I has something that specifically says that they can do that. Until I have such a document the patrols will file permits.

[Bob White]

No rants, just a little common sense, and a lot of understanding of the process. If anyone actually read the local tour permit with a patrol outing (that had no adults present) in mind, they would clearly see that there is nothing of any relative value that can put on the form. It simply is not designed for an activity with no adults present.

 

I will offer it to BadenP who used to be a professional scouter for a few years at some point in time to list for us all the pertinent information that can be on a Tour permit if no adults are present.

 

Here is what the BSA actual requires. Scoutmasters permission and an approved patrol plan, don't interfere with troop activities.

 

While the Local Tour Permit is a helpful planning tool to make sure you have the appropriate adult leadership and proper safety conditions for vehicle operation, it has NOTHING on it regarding a Patrol activity with no adults.

 

If you want a "CYA" element then teach the scouts how to be self reliant and trustworthy, then have permission slips from the parents fo the scouts to go on anactivity on their own without an adult.

 

Ursus

 

It just isn't this difficult to understand or to accomplish, and yes, I have been a leader in troops that frequently used Patrol activities without adults present, and if you have done your job of having a program that teaches Scouts the skills leading to First Class its a very natural progression in the program.

 

There is nothing about Patrol activities that is contrary to anything I have ever posted.

 

"Train Them, Trust Them, Let Them Lead" is all about youth being able to lead youth without adults having to be around.

 

***The Scoutmaster Specific Training has a section on outdoor adventure that explians Patrol activities. I am sorry if your trainers did not follow the syllabus.

 

***The Youth Protection Training talks about it in the video, I am sorry you missed it

 

***Even New Leader Essentials has an excercise that includes patrol activities. I am sorry if you didn't hear that scenario discussed.

 

Page 22 of the Scoutmaster Handbook

page 28 of the Patrol Leaders handbook

Page 20 of the Boy Scout Handbook

Page 3 Bullet #1 of the Guide to Safe Scouting

 

All tell about Patrol activities without adults present, it is unfortunate that you you have never seen any of those.

 

How many times does the the BSA program have to tell you about this one feature before you see it?

 

This is not something that the BSA has ever tried to keep secret.

 

Have I ever been a direct leader that did Patrol activities??? Evidently I am one of the very few on this forum who ever was or is. It seems I would be correct in sayiong that you are one of the leaders who never has.

 

By the way as a Boy Scout my Patrol went on day activities and overnight activities on our own all the time. Didn't yours?

 

 

[Bob White]

Jet

 

Page 3 of the G2SS

Bullet #1 Under "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings"

 

BOLD type I added the underlined to make iteasy to find.

 

1) Two-deep leadership:

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older.

 

[croushorn]

and if you have done your job of having a program that teaches Scouts the skills leading to First Class its a very natural progression in the program.

 

Once again, thank you kindly for the lecture about what you havent done yourself, or what you did as a kid (I did a lot of cool things as a kid myself, but thats not what I asked either). And in all the sections you cite, they DO NOT address specifically what is expected of a SM and the troop leadership when a patrol wishes to go and how we deal with it. Or do they? no adults are required hmmph, thats real helpful. You got me, I don't have the training manuals handy. What do they say about how to deal with it, which is what I asked for from the beginning. Please..

 

[kraut-60]

BW; I am promoting the patrols in my troop to have no less than one patrol activity per month. I have told the Troop Committee that I require a plan from the patrol and the planned activity cannot interfere with a scheduled troop activity. I am also having an adult be present for my NSP and 2nd year patrols. I have told the PLC that I will allow adult free overnight camping for the 3rd year and up patrol after seeing thier plan. I told my 2nd year scout patrol that adult free camping will be considered when all patrol members are First Class Scouts.

 

We havent had a true adult free patrol activity..yet, but I am eagerly looking forward to it. One thing I have considered in getting a patrol overnighter free of adult pressence, is to have an adult present during the day and leave when suppers over.

[Beavah]

Yah, ursus, I hear yeh. So here's some examples from a few troops and crews I know who do independent patrol outings.

 

Option 1: Drive to a trailhead, but have the patrols go in different directions. Each patrol leader files a route plan with the SPL and SM. Older scout patrols may hike a big loop, younger patrols may do a shorter out-and-back, but everyone's hikin' to a different spot to camp on their own, usin' a different trail (or are separated by departure time on the same trail). Land managers are happy because small groups are better LNT practice. File one tour permit for the whole outing. Adults camp at the trailhead, or do their own route and file their route plan with each Patrol Leader. If there's a weaker patrol that isn't ready for this level of challenge, a couple of Troop Guides go with 'em.

 

Option 2: Boys bike different routes, camp at different spots, meet up at final destination. Out of shape adults drive sag wagons, available by cell phone if needed. File one tour permit for whole outing.

 

Option 3: Adults drive boys to site, boys set up, adults leave. Return to pick 'em up at the time they requested.

 

Option 4: Go out sailin' with a crew to do a quick checkout, review the charts and weather, have 'em drop you off at the dock, and wave as they depart. Check in by radio or at their ports of call as needed.

 

Lots of other things are possible, eh? For tour permits, just file 'em with the approving adult signing.

 

In terms of liability, we're liable as adults, same as we always are. Insurance applies, same as it always does. Just like you're liable in most states for what your son does on his way to school, or what he does when yeh give him the keys to the car. If you don't think you've taught him well enough, don't give him the keys! But if we've done our job as scouters, the keys to the backpack are a lot safer than the keys to the car, eh?

 

A nice way to work up to this is what Kudu suggests. Camp apart from each other. Then go on hikes where yeh hike apart from each other, but end up camping in the same area (still spread out). Then as yeh get comfortable, loosen the apron strings a bit more. The kids adjust quickly, it's the adults that need lots of little baby steps to get over their fears.

 

Before yeh let the kids go, they should have a clear plan, and the plan should include "what to do if there's a problem". Talk through the plan with the boys and the PL. Some units will set up some sort of communication check-in, like a phone check-in at 8pm from a known cell-accessible point, or leavin' a marker when they cross a road or trail to confirm they made it that far. Maybe the first time yeh try it, do it somewhere that's a short hike or easy navigation or whatever gives the adults fewer ulcers.

 

Of course, for any of this to work, the requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Camping MB, the quality of your Patrol Leader Trainin' and the like all have to be "real", eh? Yeh have to actually meet the BSA's standard of proficiency in outdoor skills, not fake it with a quick signoff for parroting a lecture and approval from a "no retesting" BOR that makes excuses for 'em forgetting what they learned two months ago. The boys actually need to have the skills. If yeh feel it's necessary to threaten your guys with dire consequences if they misbehave, then you and they aren't ready.

 

When they get back, sit down and do a roses & thorns discussion. You'll see bright eyes, and get a whole host of tales of daring-do and "fish stories" that you'll hear repeated for months if not years. Just listen. Yeh don't need to critique. The experience did that for 'em by itself.

 

Parents? Explain it, and put it in your permission slips. Make it a normal part of your orientation process for new parents. For nervous nellies, bring 'em out on a campout and let 'em see your guys in action, and coach 'em through understanding. Parents fear the unknown, but if you're a known entity and the activity is known to 'em, they're usually fine.

 

Have I done this kind of thing as a direct-contact leader? You bet. And I've had the pleasure of knownin' other scouters who regularly do it better than I ever did. That's the whole point of Scoutin', eh? Youth leadership doesn't have any meaning until the adults are out of the picture.

 

Beavah

 

[croushorn]

AHHHH! Thank you Beavah! Thank you for spending your time writing a thoughtful post that actually contributes to the discussion rather than condescending preaching through a theoretical lecture about how poor of a leader I am because I slept through that part of the class... sheeze...

 

Those are some great ideas I will take to our PLC this week. Thank you again.

 

See kiddies, this is what happens when you bother reading the question. Any others?

 

[Bob White]

Ursus, get the chip off your shoulder and try to understand what I am trying to explain here..

 

"Once again, thank you kindly for the lecture about what you havent done yourself, or what you did as a kid "

 

As I explained I have done this myself as a youth and as an adult leader for many years, I do not understand your repeated refusal of that fact.

 

"And in all the sections you cite, they DO NOT address specifically what is expected of a SM and the troop leadership when a patrol wishes to go and how we deal with it. Or do they? no adults are required hmmph, thats real helpful. You got me, I don't have the training manuals handy."

 

Ursus, how do you know they won't help you if you don't have the information on hand to look at? First read the materials then ask your questions.

 

"What do they say about how to deal with it, which is what I asked for from the beginning. Please..

 

First of all they tell you how to lead a scouting program that teaches scouts the skills they need to camp on their own, They are in the rank requirements from Tenderfoot to First Class.

 

Next you tell them that the patrol needs to show you their plan for the activity and you need to approve it. So as a trained leader what do you teach the Scouts to include in a plan?? If I were you I would look for those things you taught them. If you are unsure what those things are you should be teaching I would highly recommend a return to training, and read the scout handbook from Tenderfoot to First Class until you are familiar with the information.

 

Next you need to make sure that the parents understand that the scouts will be on their own but that you are satisfied that they have the skills and the maturity to be just fine.

 

You ask how you "deal with it" I do not know what that means? You don';t have to deal with anything...you have to lead! You evaluate their abilities and their plan, you communicate your concerns and your confidence in them, you support them, and if you feel that they are not ready you work with them on a compromise such as two adults going on the first one but camping nearby and not interferring except in safety matters.

 

For this to be a part of a Scouting program it takes a certain skill level and maturity in the scouts and in the leaders.

 

Good grief! If you have scouts that are First Class rank or higher but don't have the skills to be on their own for a day long activity or an overnight activity, then why were they advanced? How can someone trained and tested in planning, packing, shopping, cooking, camping, hiking, first aid, safety, working with others, and other skills not be capable and trusted to spend a day or a night without an adult around.

 

Patrol activities have always been a part of Boy Scouting and so have the skills to do it.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

While the Scouts are covered with the accident insurance if the unit has purchased it or if it is provided by the council. No unit leader's individual liability would be involved as no unit leader is there. Lets use a little common sense here. You cannot be responsible for damage or injury that occurred when you were not involved or even present.

 

Patrol activities are unique elents of scouting and do not follow the same conditions as troop activities..

[gcnphkr]

 

1) Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older.

I understand.

That the Local Tour Permit is not useful for patrol activities doesn't matter. But the G2SS, the Council's interpretation of BSA policy and the Council's stated policy all require a tour permit whether the tour permit is useful or not. Now they can change their policy, National can change the G2SS. They can revise the Tour Permit. But until one or all of those things happen my unit is stuck having to complete a Tour Permit.

[Bob White]

Jet actual look at the tour permit and you will see that their is very little that does not relate to adults and adult criteria and adult responsibilities. It is not a form designed to use with a patrol outing.

 

When the permit asks for "unit" it is asking for Den, Pack, Troop, Crew, or Ship.

 

The section on speed and mileage is not applicable since scouts cannot drive on a patrol outing.

 

The section on Youth Protection training is not applicable since no adults are going.

 

The section on adult leader in charge is not applicable since there will not be an adult in charge.

 

The section on the Assistant adult in charge is not applicable since no adult is going.

 

The goup leader for the permit refers to the first sections adult leader but there is none.

 

Only the questions in box 3 and 4 can be answered.

 

The balance of the form refers to adult certification for various training BUT THERE ARE NO ADULTS GOING.

 

And the drivers insurance coverage...BUT THERE ARE NO ADULTS GOING, and the scouts cannot drive for a patrol outing.

 

 

You might as well fill out a Unit Money Earning Application because it doesn't have anything to do with a Patrol activity either.

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[gwd-scouter]

OK, a real-life example. Last spring our guys were getting ready for a backpacking trip. Older guys wanted something more challenging than was planned. At that time, we had only 10 guys in the Troop. Main objective for the trip was to work on map and compass for a couple of the newer Scouts. Four older Scouts asked if they could backpack on their own on the very challenging trail where the Troop was going for the weekend. Of course I said. Get together and plan it out. All went together to the site. Adults and younger Scouts hiked off in one direction, older guys took off on their own. Older guys met up with the group the next morning for breakfast. They loved it!

 

Just had our planning weekend and a couple of the younger Scouts that weren't eligible to go with the older guys last spring are now asking if they can this year. Scout skills and maturity are the measure of who is ready and it's up to the guys.

 

This example is not exactly an independent patrol activity since 1) we only have one patrol and 2) the whole troop went on the outing but separated once at the site, but it does serve as an example of what you can do with your scouts.

 

This year the older guys want to do a couple of truly adult-less outings. Drive 'em somewhere and drop 'em off for the weekend. Another thought they had is to bicycle from our meeting place to our state park (about 16 miles). Way to go guys, it's what we've been working toward.

[Stosh]

One also has to remember that if the patrol is made up of older scouts, which is usually the case with independent patrol activities, many of them are over 16 and drive themselves to the event. Kinda like what kids of that age do for any other kinds of activities they are involved with.

 

And as a side note, the "theories and speculation" that I put out on the forum is a result of 40 years of working with youth, most of them in the BSA program, leader of two active units in two different programs of BSA and the information I offer to those who wish to learn something is often a result of what the boys have indicated they would prefer doing. As far as a practical nature of the information? Well,... it works, what more can I say. For those who don't like the information, feel free to ignore it. With 1000+ people lurking on this forum, I'm sure it benefits a few. And having studied Latin, I thought the translation was: "Large carnivore that makes loud useless noises", but I may be wrong.

 

"Stosh since according to you, your SPL-less method is the best way to run a troop,"

 

If one doesn't take it out of context, this may be true. What the comment made indicated that with 3 patrols, an SPL was not necessary because it would be a position with no function/utility. Next year I anticipate growing large enough for 6 patrols and now an SPL will be necessary to support 6 PL's. The size of the group dictates whether or not an SPL is necessary, not the program.

 

"so tell me: do your patrols go and do this?"

 

I'm assuming from the non-referenced pronouns one is trying to indciate how patrols work independently and are involved in non-adult activities? They do it all the time, starting with their own patrol meetings, camping as patrols, making plans and deciding of what they would like to do without adult interference. This doesn't happen overnight, it is a long and thoughtful process. Boys if given a chance can handle these things very well.

 

"If so, how? Not another subjective lesson that a SM worth his weight would be training them how to do it, or get out of the way and let someone who will, tell me how your perfect patrols do it?"

 

Again, another distortion of what I have commented on. There is a difference between adult-supported and adult-led. If the boys ask for direction, guidance, help, etc. they of course get it from the troop officers which are subordinate to them and the adults who are subordinate to the troop officers. From those positions, boys are assisted with their concerns, ideas, activities rather than told what to do which is the most obvious sign that a troop is adult-led. I would think it would obvious that training, insights, suggestions, etc. all fit into a supportive mentality rather than direct, guide, mentor, coach which all indicate control and leading concepts.

 

"And if so, how does it go?"

 

From what I have observed and the comments made by the boys to me, my adults, and other units around them, it goes very well. They are excited, the program is growing at a speed that is very challenging, the goals they set for themselves are being attained, retention is very high, about 1/3 of the new boys have attained TF, 1/3 SC and 1/3 FC in the first 6 months they have been involved. They went to summer camp and took on

in-site patrol cooking/camping, earned 2 MB's and are in the final stages of PL training to take on their own patrols next Feb when new boys come in. Personally? My only concern is that these boys may be progressing too fast and may burn out. I'm always trying to invoke the "Have Fun" rule to slow them down and they insist they really are.

 

"How do you deal with the parents?"

 

I don't. That what a good CC and committee will do for the program. The adult leaders are all on the same page, all pulling and working in the same direction, trust each other and protect the boys from outside interference. It's called teamwork and it applies to the adults as much as it applies to the youth.

 

"How do you deal with the safety of YOUR boys?"

 

There are only three rules that are adult dictated in the program. They are:

 

1) Safety First.

2) Look and act like a scout.

3) Have Fun

 

These are the only times when an adult (and/or other scout) do not need permission to step in and lead. This is 100% agreed upon by the boys themselves and welcome adult intervention when these things are not happening.

 

As a former EMT-A, I now work in a multi-billion dollar, multi-national industry in the general operations/safety arena. If one wishes to discuss JSHA's, IRA's, and JSA's, feel free to contact me directly. Otherwise, one can assume that MY BOYS are in as safe an environment as humanly possible considering the situation of the program.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Kudu]

ursus snorous roarus writes:

 

Kudu once and for all, your schtick has gotten really old, this is 2008 and what was done prior to 1972 isnt at all relevant anymore.

 

You asked "how many camps, state parks or otherwise, will allow a group of youth to camp without a leader-in-charge?" I outlined the kinds of camping areas that do not require adult supervision. I even included a URL with the 2008 rules for a camping area that we use for 300 foot Patrol Camping as an example.

 

You dismissed this with a rant against Baden-Powell.

 

ursus snorous roarus writes:

 

So quit whining and get off it, youre no Yoda. Go find a hobby.

 

If my posts make you so very angry then why not use the link "Ignore this user" to the left of this post right now and spare us all from sifting through your rage?

 

Kudu