JASM About?

[MichaelOA]

Well, I want to know all the details I can about the JASM. And I want to clarify a few things, mainly I started this topic to see if there is a set rule for who the JASM is with during troop activities, and camp outs.

 

For examples, I asked my scoutmaster and he said when I become the JASM I will no longer be able to share a tent with the other youth members, and I will have to have my own tent in the adult camp, is this a BSA Rule or just my scoutmaster? If this is a BSA rule, what else can't I do with the youths, will I still eat with them, or hike, or participate in activities?

 

Thanks

 

Michael //SSC BSA

[NeilLup]

Hello Michael,

 

I checked the Guide to Safe Scouting and the only relevant thing I found was the following:

 

 

"When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian"

 

In this case, youth is a person under the age of 18, so a JASM would be considered a youth.

 

I can tell you that in most units I know about, the senior youth tent together i.e. the JASM(s) would tent together with the SPL and other senior youth.

 

You are talking about what appears to be a rule made by your Scoutmaster. If you have not had JASMs previously, he or she may be unfamiliar with the position and not appreciate that the JASM is still primarily a youth leader who falls under youth leader rules. The JASM is still, per guide to safe scouting, permitted to tent with other youth.

 

The SM has the prerogative to make such a rule. However, I would counsel with your SM and possibly have your SM talk with other units, with your Commissioner or District Camping Chairman, etc. to get some information on what other units do. Be very courteous and respectful in this discussion as it will influence how your SM thinks of you.

 

Congratulations on becoming a JASM.

[Beavah]

Yah, MichaelOA, good question, eh?

 

JASM is one of those "open, ambiguous" positions, eh? Different troops use JASMs differently, and in many cases da best troops tailor the role of each JASM to the person and what the troop needs at the time. Just like with adult ASMs, each takes on a different role.

 

So a lot is just goin' to depend on your unit and your SM, eh? And your own interests and strengths.

 

I personally think your SM's got the right of it. In order for a JASM to really feel like and act like and be treated like an ASM, he has to physically move to the adult side of da fence. Participation as a fellow ASM in adult meetings is important. Especially the "informal" meetin's that happen in the "adult camp" over coffee or breakfast or whatnot. That way you feel like you're a real ASM, the other ASMs start to treat yeh like a fellow ASM, and da youth leaders begin to see you as an ASM. Most JASMs are former SPL's and strong youth leaders, and if they continue livin' with the youth they tend to take away from the experience of the new SPL for a while... everyone still turns to them, eh?

 

And it's hard to think of your tent-mate as an ASM, eh? Da more yeh hang with the kids, the less they'll see you as an ASM.

 

Rules aren't da place to start when you're thinkin' about this, but in answer to your rules question, you're still a youth member. You can sleep with another youth, but yeh can't share a tent with an adult member.

 

At da same time, all things in balance. If some of the other youth leaders like the SPL are your peers at school and your friends, there's sure to be times to spend hangin' out or hikin' with them or whatnot. As Neil mentions, if you've got a Venture Patrol / Senior Patrol / Leadership Corps / Old Scout Patrol, yeh might split your time with them and your ASM duties. That gives yeh practice wearin' two hats, which sometimes happens in the real world, eh? "I'm your friend for that, but for this I'm an ASM..." That can be challengin'.

 

Overall, though, JASM is IMO da last step on da road to becoming an adult ASM. We adults on campouts have a different kind of fun, spendin' time with each other and watchin' / helpin' da youth members succeed. It's harder in a lot of ways, because our "wins" depend on gettin' other people to grow and be their best, not just our own skill. It's not for every youth, eh? Some are best left as SPLs and TG's and QM's because they enjoy and are still growin' in those roles. But if you're ready for that last step, JASM is da role yeh should be in.

 

Beavah

 

[MichaelOA]

Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate the help I can find here. On a side note I'm not the JASM, yet. My Scoutmaster is intent on keeping me TG until my sixteenth birthday, so that being eight months away, I have some time to keep learning, and furthering my skills as a better leader, person, and to mature.

 

 

//Michael SSC BSA

"The only problem with the Boy Scouts... is that there aren't enough of 'em" -Will Rogers

[Stosh]

Michael, we don't use JASM in our troop, we like to keep our boys active and "in the game" so to speak. To us the JASM is for older boys that are basically semi-retired from scouting because they got their Eagle.

 

Our Eagle scouts will have a choice of positions they wish to function at. How does DC sound? What would your next year Webelos scouts be like if their DC was an Eagle Scout? PL of new scouts? Or TG or one of the other more functional positions?

 

For those Eagle scouts that wish to semi-retire, there's the Eagle Patrol where they all hang out as a patrol with only the PL and APL with patches.

 

Somehow I don't see being shuffled out of the action as being a good use of leadership skills in the troop.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Stosh

[NeilLup]

Hello Stosh,

 

Bite your tongue and slap your wrist. If the JASM is a position for Eagle Scouts to retire, some serious training is needed of the JASM, the SM, the ASMs and everybody else in sight.

 

JASM is a real job for real Scouts to do to aid and tie together the adult leadership and youth leadership of the Troop and be a counselor and intermediary to both.

[Stosh]

Ideally, that position concept is correct in the way the majority troops operate today. In reality, and especially in a boy-led, patrol-method operation, that's seldom the case.

 

In the way my troop is structured, there is no need for any JASM's. With being boy-led, patrol-method, there is minimal need for SM and ASM and even less need for a JASM. If there ever comes a time when a functional JASM is needed the boys might consider having one, until then, it's pretty much just a patch on the sleeve and the boys know it.

 

If I remember correctly the SM was deciding on this boy being a JASM. In an adult-led program this might actually work. However, Michael's situation seem to alienate him even more than normal by not really being part of the adult situation, nor the youth situation, but some sort of no-man's land somewhere in between.

 

My boys all aspire to be PL's, that's where the real leadership is needed. If a boy has proven himself a worthy leader by wearing the Eagle patch, he should be afforded the opportunity to put that leadership to work in the trenches of a boy-led, patrol-method program, not suffled off to Buffalo to some position that has very little to do with the patrol-method. As a matter of fact, my boys are so much into the patrol method of scouting they have a quick election at camporees to see which PL get's stuck with being the SPL for the weekend and has to divide his energy between troop and patrol responsibilies. So far they have always elected the TG for that temporary position. Obviously the SPL position doesn't have the prestige that is promoted in many of the other troops around us. If SPL doesn't hold much prestige, one can only imagine where JASM falls into the formula.

 

Sorry, my views seem to make good sense to me and to the boys of my troop.

 

Stosh

[MichaelOA]

Well, that would only work in a boy led troop, mine was getting really close to being that way, but when I stopped running for the SPL, the new one, is still learning and doesn't really want help with it from what I've noticed. In fact he had recently told me, it was his job now not mine, and I'm not supposed to help. (To bad I'm currently the TG and I will anyway.) Our troop is basically being led by the SM just talking through the current SPL, so even if it is the SPL talking, the words are really coming from the SM. So with it not even being near a boy led troop maybe the JASM will be more useful in mine, or maybe when I'm 16 it will be boy run. Still looking for advice of how most troops use their JASM. It would seem he is just considered a transition from boy to adult membership in the BSA, and not much more.

 

 

(Off Topic: Out of the group running, our new SPL was the best choice. And I'm sure soon he will become a better leader, the issue is the majority boys in the troop wont listen to him.)

[Stosh]

Michael, I can tell you really are beginning to understand how this adult-led process really works (or doesn't work!). It is obvious you have spent some quality time looking at this with an astute mind.

 

It is a correct observation on how the SPL seems to be directed by the SM and thus the boys don't follow. What one has in reality is an adult led program. They can call it by other names, but basically the SM is in control and everyone else just follows along. Sure, it looks like the boys are running things, but no one is really fooling anyone. No one will listen to the SPL because the boys aren't running the show and the SPL is just taking the heat for the SM's decisions/directives.

 

It is obvious that the SPL isn't going to take any counseling or mentoring from the JASM either so that a move to that position will basically remove them from any serious leadership involvement in the unit. If one is viewed as interfering in the SM -> SPL -> troop process of leadership, they would best be served as getting placed out of the way in some arbitrary JASM or other non-functioning position. This is why our troop does things so radically different, we saw the same problems one would encounter in an adult-led unit. What is basically being identified here is: with the SM running the show and everyone else following, it leaves very little if any room for any real boy leadership processes to develop.

 

If the SM says as JASM the scout would no longer be able to share tents with other scouts, etc. he is making it clear just how "out of the loop" one is going to be as a JASM. Personally I would drop all patches off my sleeve before taking JASM under those conditions.

 

Until the unit truly becomes boy-led, nothing will ever change. If one has the courage to take on the SM and challenge the dynamics of the unit maybe it could change, but don't expect things to miraculously change once they reach the age of 16.

 

If one is truly interested in providing some genuine leadership in the troop, I would suggest taking on the position of PL of the older scouts or starting a venture patrol. Insist on the patrol's independence and make decisions based on what's best for the patrol as the boys decide for themselves their own program. Don't worry about the troop being boy-led, just focus on the patrol being boy-led. If the SM refuses an Eagle scout this opportunity, the scout will definitely know that boy-led is never going to happen. If, however, the SM agrees to this, have the patrol become the standard by which all the other patrols might follow. By setting the example of what could be good for the troop, maybe some of the adults will back off and let the boys actually lead themselves more than what is being done now. Don't expect it, but by having a separate boy-led patrol, life in the unit will at least be tolerable.

 

Also, personally, don't become disenchanted with scouting. This dilemna is common in most adult-led programs. The boys get to the age where they would like to try out their leadership skills that have been taught to them for 4-5 years only to have them held back by adults wanting to do all the real leadership. Ever wonder why boys at this age (16-ish) go off and find other opportunities? It's because they don't want to be treated like 11 year-olds any more. The adults blame it on girls and cars, but what about all the boys that don't have girl friend nor cars and they still quit scouting? Sure they come back at the last minute and get their Eagle, but it's not because of any burning desire to be treated like a Tenderfoot, they only want the rank for personal reasons.

 

It is refreshing to have a scout step up and identify this common type of problem. It takes some great insight to see how it negatively affects scouting. Realizing what has been identified allows this scout to know what NOT to do when he turns 18 and takes on adult responsibilities. Just hang in there, you have the potential of being a great SM when the day comes. I have put 30+ years into scouting with one basic premise, to not be the SM that I had as a youth. Every scout deserves a great leader, and Michael you are already there.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

Hi Michael

 

You ask a complicated question because every Scoutmaster uses the JASM differently. Neal and Beveaher gave excellent answers to your questions and I really cant add to Beavehers explanation. Since your SM wants you to hang with the adults, he is certainly trying to build a program where mature scouts can take on more mature responsibilities. Our JASMs were given the choice to hang with adults if they liked. They tried it and do pretty well, but I found that when 16 and 17 year olds needs some down time and they would rather do it with friends their age. When it comes to gas, girls and video games, teenagers just have a different perspective than adults. So while the JASMs hang with the adults and do adult responsibilities during the day, they tended to hang with their friends at night wear they can let their hair down a little.

 

However, as I did with my scouts, I will still suggest to you to give a try and see how it works so both you and your scoutmaster can learn from the experience.

 

Your SM seems like a decent fellow and we are all learning at this game. You sound a little frustrated with your SM at the moment, but you need to understand his job. He is responsible for you and all the other scouts growing up as men of character as well as bringing you safely home from each outing. I rarely slept the week before a campout with all that weighing on my mind. It is not and easy job giving boys responsibilities were they might screw up. What if a patrol forgets their food for the campout. It easy to just say let them figure it out and learn from the lesson. But as a father and the responsible adult for sons of all the fathers and mothers in the troop, letting the boys starve is a difficult choice. I know, I made it many times. Of course they dont starve and they figure things out, but how do you know until you let it happen.

 

So there is a huge learning curve to the Scoutmaster gig. A mature 16 year old JASM with great ideas just might be the blessing he needs to make his learning a little easier. Be bold and let him know how it is going. Be aggressive and suggest a few things that might give ideas to improving the program. Be humble and remember that nobody is perfect and that we all learn from our mistakes. Remember your place and set an example by living the scout law and oath.

 

I have worked with a lot of JASMs and ASMs from ages 15 to 25 in scouting. In many cases these folks were better at scouting than most of the adults. They knew well all the scout skills and leadership skills required for a safe campout and fun Troop meeting. But I pointed out to them that their biggest challenge as a JASM or ASM was just living an example of the scout law and oath. Later on they would come back to me and agree. You are THE role model for all the scouts. How you act and what you say is giving them permission to how they can act and what they can say. If you do a good job just at that, you will be well ahead many adults, and you will then understand why leading boys is so hard.

 

Seems like great opportunities for you and your troops future. I look forward to reading how it goes.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[MichaelOA]

No resentment towards my SM, in fact I respect him deeply, and I understand his duties as such. If there was anything picked up in such a way, it might have been that I would prefer that in the beginning of the term for any leadership position, he guided them as he does now, but starts cutting back more, and preparing them to lead and if you keep with the same program for the same scout on how the troop will run, there wont be much progress. The current SPL, and myself have both taken the NYLT course, and in the near future our scoutmaster is taking the "top leaders" in our troop for a JLT or TLT not sure what they're calling it today. Which is beneficial in many ways, but I hope to speak with him on giving the course to possibly the whole troop, or all who wish to participate at the moment it will only be the current SPL, ASPL, PL, APL, and myself. So maybe if the other scouts get in on some of the training when it's there turn to be on of the many leadership positions they will not need as much of a boost, and we can't get just that much closer to being a boy run troop.

[Bob White]

Boy Scouting units are not "Boy Run". That is a misapplied term. Troop and Patrols "activities" are BOY LEAD. There is a difference between a unit being run by youth and the unit's activities being lead by youth.

 

Knowing the role and responsibilities of the JASM as well as the requirements for becoming JASM is in nearly every Boy Scout Troop resource there really is no good reason for the Scoutmaster to not know them.

 

 

[MichaelOA]

Well, I don't know how accurate that is, as I have never seen much about the JASM in anything, but I also don't have a SM handbook. But it would seem to me that a lot of troops, either use this position incorrectly, or just don't really use it altogether.

[Bob White]

What does it say of JASM in your Boy Scout Handbook Michael?

[MichaelOA]

Looked in the index, only reference was found on Page 26.

 

"Junior Assistant Scoutmasters

These are young men ages 16 and 17 who help the troop achieve its goals."

 

To me, that is a little bit lacking of detail.