How do we build true, independent patrol camping?

[Beavah]

This thread is spun from da parent thread to provide a fun place for Kudu, BobWhite, and anyone else interested in explainin' to others (patiently!) how to develop the patrol method in their troops to the point where they are regularly hiking and camping as independent, essentially adult-free, small groups.

 

I ask as a favor and a courtesy that this thread be kept to instructional stuff, ideas, and Q&A. I ask particularly that it not be used to critique either BSA training/materials or unit leaders perceived as "weak" or such. Different ideas that help folks move toward better use of Patrol Method should be welcome without (too much) debate.

 

Beavah

 

[Kudu]

Consider ongoing Patrol Contests with points given for mastery of the skills the adult leaders consider necessary to camp as independent, essentially adult-free small groups.

 

At least some of these skills should be based on the ability and desire to plan and carry out Patrol Hikes (at monthly campouts if necessary).

 

The accumulated points are converted to the number of feet each Patrol is allowed to camp from the nearest adult at the next Troop campout.

 

Run a simultaneous contest between all of the adults and Scouts associated with the Troop to determine who can find the most camping venues that allow spread-out camping.

 

Kudu

 

[Gonzo1]

Who says the whole troop has to camp at the same time at the same place?

 

Let's say out of 12 months a troop attends 2 camporees as a whole troop. And, let's say a troop has 4 patrols, 2 of older boys, 2 of younger boys. Why not have the 2 older boy patrols go to XYZ State Park and the other two go to council camp ABC. Each can do their own thing, maybe compete against another patrol, but 16 or 17 year old competing against 12 year olds ALL THE TIME? I don't think so.

 

Then, how about each patrol camps individually a couple times a year.

 

I think the most important part for adults is to stay out of the way and allow them to fail (safely - without getting physically hurt). It's OK if a scout doesn't cook his food all the way, just remind them to cook chicken all the way though.

 

[shortridge]

(Forgive the basic-ness and stupidity of my question - I've been out of the business for a while. I'm not snarking, just genuinely curious.)

 

Do BSA regs (G2SS, etc.) permit patrols (or even troops) to go on independent treks these days? Or do they require adult leadership?

[Bob White]

Troops require two deep leadership, Patrols require the scoutmaster's permission.

 

You will find this in the Scoutmaster Basic Training, The Boy Scout Handbook, Youth Protection Training, The Patrol Leader Handbook, The Guide to Safe Scouting , and other BSA training and resources.

 

The easiest way to develop independence is in stages. It starts with adults stopping the habit of telling scouts what to do and instead asking them what they plan to do next. If they get a good answer say "great!, good plan, if you need anything let me know. I think that is a good decision." then let them go. Later ask how it went. Scouts will begin to trust their own decsions the more you show you trust themand the more often they work out okay. When they don't work out don't yell and don't say "I told you so". Instead ask them where they think they could have done something different that would have gotten a better outcome. If they give a good anser then give them positive reinforcement. If they can't answer then coach them to a better decision. Then suggest the next time they are up against the same thing, try the new option and let you know how it went.

 

As far as independent camping and outings, Do more patrol camping, Why can't a dad and a ASM go with a patrol camping for the weekend, then on another patrol outing they can camp nearby, then on another they can spend the day but not the night, Then they can just stay away.

 

There is a common misconception that a troop is supposed to camp every month. There is nothing in the BSA program that has ever said that.

 

Scouts should do more patrol activities than troop activities and they get to do things that interest them. Soe patrols might like to do fishing trips, others might like to do bike hikes, others want to go to the local pool.

 

The job of the scoutmaster is to see that the youth leadership and the patrol are prepared for independent activities, that they have the skills to be safe and healthy, that they have a plan, and that the parents know the scouts will be on their own.

 

Don't worry how close the next campsite is, worry about developing youth who can be independent because they make decisions based on the values of the Oath and Law and have the skill to carry out the decision.

 

 

"The Patrol Method is not one way to operate a troop...It is the ONLY way."

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Lisabob]

I hope some of you will include in your discussion, tips for how to wean experienced adults away. That is one thing I've seen, that even well-meaning adult leaders (and especially many who have been involved a long time) aren't willing to let this happen. Sometimes it is because they don't trust the boys to be safe or they're worried about liability matters, or they don't know how to sell this to the boys' parents as an acceptable practice in the modern world. Sometimes, I've seen, it appears to be because they (adults) don't want to give up the fun of participating themselves. I'd welcome genuine tips (as opposed to harangues) for how to help adults change their mindsets.

 

 

[Gonzo1]

LisaBob,

When I go camping with my son's troop, and I see a dad (moms in the troop don't go camping) and I see a dad "do" something for a boy, I just ask the dad "what are doing?". He might say "I'm helping Johnny set up his tent" or "I'm cooking pancakes for th boys" or whatever, I suggest that the dad have a seat and let a scout help him or ask the PL to get someone to help him, but not the SM or ASM's/MC's. Sometimes I suggest that if left alone, they'll do it. Sometimes the dad will make excuses like "well, since the boys worked so hard on _____, I just thought I'd give 'em a hand".

 

When scouts drift over to the adult campsite, I don't mind if they visit for a moment, but then I send them back to their patrol area. I'm not rude, it's just where they belong.

 

I'll drop by a patrol campsite and observe for a few minutes, but I don't butt in. When my son asks me to help thus and so, I'll tell him what he can do, but I also tell him to get a scout to help or ask his PL.

 

Bob White is right, there's no rule that troops must camp every month, but it's more fun to camp every month.

 

 

[Bob White]

There are lots of outdoor things scouts can do to be outside every month that do not include camping, and if scouts want to camp every month they do not need to do it as a troop every time,they can do it as independent patrols.

 

As far as changing "experienced " leaders, that depends on what kind of experience. If you mean changing guys who have done it incorrectly for years who still think they are right...best of luck, it is unlikely they will ever accept the actual program if they haven't by now.

 

Remember that not every adult wants the youth to be independent. As I have mentioned before BSA volunteers come from all walks of life. Not every one who wants to be a Scout leader should get to be one.

 

Cos and Committees need to take the selection process seriously. They should realize that some folks just like to be "in Charge" if the scouts were to become independent then these kinds of adults would feel like they had no one to boss around. We have all seen these kinds of leaders. Short of a leadership epiphany they will never change.

 

We have even seen on this forum that some of these scouters become trainers and commissioners and teach other scouters how to boss youth around.

 

Leader selection is critical to a good scouting program at every level.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Kudu]

Lisabob writes:

 

I hope some of you will include in your discussion, tips for how to wean experienced adults away.

 

That is the purpose of the Patrol Contest, above. Patrols gradually camp a little further from the adults in the context of the Troop's familiar camping format. The distance between each Patrol and the nearest adult is based on specific skills. If for some reason the experiment fails at 50 feet then everyone learns something about the Patrol Method. No harm, no foul.

 

Between 1936 and 1972 every Handbook for Scoutmasters included a step by step course called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" in which the Scoutmaster trained a Patrol of Patrol Leaders how to lead adult-free Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts. This is one possible source for the specific skills that should be rewarded with contest distance points. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

I guess I don't restrict my patrol identities/activities to just outings.

 

At opening flags of every meeting the boys gather as patrols with PL having the flag, rallys the boys and then brings his patrol on the troop flag line. Normally this is one line side-by-side patrols. The patrol assigned the flags for the week stands in the middle of the line flanked by the other patrols.

 

111PL 222PL 333PL TG

111APL222APL333APL

 

 

After flags, each patrol goes to their corner of the room and the adults get a corner of their own to do their "stuff". SM does his Conferences, etc. in the middle of the room. When the meeting is over the patrols once more gather for flags fall into ranks, do flags and are then dismissed after a SM minute. The "troop" is only together for flags.

 

At camp where the boys are expected to line up behind the SPL in a single file line, we stand as a block of patrols with the PL and flag on the right end of each line.

 

111PL

111APL

222PL

222APL

333PL

333APL

TG (SPL if necessary)

 

Adults

 

We operate very much like a Cub Pack with each "Den/Patrol" operating independently of the other "Dens/Patrols". This autonomy has allowed a development of commraderie that seems to be working very well.

 

If for some necessary reason the TG can call the patrols back into line as for flags.

 

Without the constant interference of other people in the room, these patrols have built a strong basis of teamwork, esprit-de-corps, and focus on task.

 

I believe the only time we have ever met as a "troop" was for outside speakers coming in to address all the boys. Without saying anything I did notice even then the boys sat in the audience as patrols without anyone suggesting it.

 

When we travel to events the boys ride in cars of patrols, if there isn't enough room sometimes the PL's travel together so they can discuss logistics about when they arrive on site.

 

The boys take the patrol method to the extreme and shy away from troop oriented activities. The dynamic that is mantra-ed into the boys is that the PL and patrol is a mini-troop of an "adult-led, troop-method" but the PL is the "SM" and the 7 boys are his "troop".

 

Because of this constant patrol emphasis in the unit, the necessity of 300' between patrols doesn't really matter. I can put them separated but rather close and there is very little if any interaction between members of the patrols. When there was (last summer at camp) a twine fence was put up and the patrols enforced camp protocol in their patrol areas.

 

Every opportunity for patrol emphasis needs to be reinforced by the SM to insure the boys the opportunity to actually function as patrols.

 

Stosh

 

[Bob White]

Jblake raises an excellent point

Patrol Method is not just about camping. It has to do with everythihg the scouts do. They play games as patrols, they meet a patrols, they do service as a patrol, they work on skills as a patrol, they make decisions a a patrol.

 

This is why distance at camp is such a non-issue. The patrol is the patrol ALL the time not just in the campsite.

 

This is why you should never reorganize patrols for games, or combine patrols at campouts, and why patrols work best with scouts of similar ages and interests. All elements of the Patrol Method still taugt by the BSA.

[kenk]

The biggest obsticle to healthy patrols is the adults - both parents, the Scoutmasters, and the troop committee. Adults often just can let go - just can't let the Scouts take over and make decisions.

 

In our troop myself and several other Asst. Scoutmasters have been doing our best to build adult-independence and encourage Scout leadership. The one thing we're missing now is the youth training. Without that we can't succeed. Still, we're moving forward.

 

The troop used to camp as a "Pack". The adults were (and to some extent still are) running the troop as a one-den Cub Scout pack.

[Stosh]

Kenk,

 

Remember that this whole process/method is not a forumula for doing things, it is an attitude/understanding one has for doing things. There is no ritual/routines, to-do lists or organizational charts that is going to get your people into boy-led, patrol-method. No amount of "training" is going to get you there either.

 

The "new" approach will be every boy will be taught to say "With all due respect Mr. _______, you are taking away my opportunity to lead. May I please do it?" every time they see an adult doing scout work. And every adult will be taught to say "That's the boy's job." every time they see another adult doing scout work.

 

The boys didn't go to camporee last fall because they didn't do anything to plan for it. The parents complained as did the boys, my other leaders remained mute. They didn't go to fall klondike, nor winter survival for the same reason. The parents complained as did the boys, my other leaders remained mute. Now they are beginning to see that the adults really mean it that the boys are going to be running the show or nothing's going to be done. They did make it to spring camporee but summer camp was far more difficult than it had to be, but now they know better for next year.

Do the parents complain? Sure they do. Do the adults find it easy to let the boys fail? No they don't. Are the boys learning and improving little by little. Yep! Is this process painless? Nope. Does this happen overnight? Nope. Is it worth the grief one gets for not doing it like every other troop out there? Yep. Do the boys embrace this? Some do, some don't. Those that do become very active and dedicated, those that don't, quit. There really doesn't seem to be much middle ground when the process relies on the boys stepping up and actually leading.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I'll only comment briefly on the age thing, which has been beat to death in other threads. I think games are only fun when they're fair, and that means that 16 year olds competing against 12 year olds doesn't cut it most of the time. Troops with same-age patrols tend not to use patrol competition very much, IMO.

 

The other bonus is that adults, both parents and leaders, are far more likely to trust the older boys in a mixed-age patrol than they are a bunch of 12 year olds on their own. Trustin' a confident high school lad with leadin' a patrol hike seems "reasonable" - after all, a parent would trust him as a baby-sitter, right? And, to be honest, the older lads have the skill and maturity to really lead independently.

 

So there's tradeoffs in da age thing, and yeh have to play around and decide what works for your group.

 

I see the distance thing only as a simple (but effective) technique for breaking bad habits, like Lisabob's meddling adults. If each patrol is a good hike away, adults have to think about really preparin' the lads, and there's no convenient way to meddle a little here, a little there. Better, though, if the patrols are running an independent campout and the adults go home for the night, or the adults hike a different route, etc.

 

I think the other thing with adults is that what scoutin' is proposing is very counter-cultural in these days of hovering parents. It needs quite a bit of up-front explainin' to parents. It also needs a lot more mentoring and reinforcing for adult leaders (who turn over frequently). There are times as a commish I have to duct tape adult leaders to a tree they get so nervous about havin' the lads on their own for more than 5 minutes. I reckon there's room for a lot more trainin' and coaching and techniques for practicing here, given how much we're asking adult leaders to "buck the culture". Puttin' it in requirements might help, too (participate in 10 separate activities, at least 3 of which must be independent, adult-free patrol outings...)

 

Troop Leader Training should be focused around more intensive adult-free skill/leadership development. The role of a SM is to prepare his youth leaders for independent leadership. To do that, yeh have to start with makin' 'em personally independent. The historic notion of a First Class Scout was a lad who was a personally independent camper. In my experience, that's gotten watered down in a lot of units, so TLT has to take up da slack before it moves on to leadership. It's also an easier thing to get an adult to start by trusting his youth leaders/PLC with independent camping, and then slowly work up to "regular" patrols.

 

Beavah

 

[Kudu]

jblake47 writes:

 

Because of this constant patrol emphasis in the unit, the necessity of 300' between patrols doesn't really matter. I can put them separated but rather close and there is very little if any interaction between members of the patrols. When there was (last summer at camp) a twine fence was put up and the patrols enforced camp protocol in their patrol areas.

 

Stosh,

 

Have you taken this to the next level, what Beavah described in the initial post as the point where the Patrols regularly hike and camp as independent, essentially adult-free, small groups?

 

If not, then how do you plan to make that transition?

 

Kudu