The Official Chain of Command?

[Bob White]

The committee should certainly have input, but the fact is they have no authority. That lies with the IH, CR, and CC only. They represent the chartering organization. Their signatures are the only ones recognized by the BSA for adult memberships. That is the real world.

 

The goals is for everyone to play nice together and do their jobs, but when it comes to not doing their job the Scoutmaster has no athority in the matter. And if the CR and CC choose to remove, replace, or reassign, any registered adult in the unit then there is no other registered adult or committee in the BSA that can prohibit them.

 

And THAT is real world as well.

 

 

[acco40]

Bottom line, and I think you and I are talking past each other - only the CO/COR can remove a Scouter for any or no reason. The CC nor the SM may not. I don't understand why you keep saying the CR and the CC choose to remove. The CR doesn't need the input of the CC anymore than he needs the input of the SM is my point.

 

Can you tell I've never been CC? (This message has been edited by acco40)

[Stosh]

I'm the IH of the CO and Advisor of my crew. If my CC get's out of line, he's history!!! And then on the other hand in the hobby, he outranks me when we're not at a local event, but I outrank him when it's local. Fortunately he's a great guy and so we'll never have to try and figure out who's going to fire whom.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

Acco

There is no position in scouting called a CO, just as there are no registered without registration fee positions in a troop.

 

CO (charter organization)is a thing and things do not have authority. The IH, CR, and CC are the people that represent the CO and THEY have authority over the adult membership positions.

[Beavah]

BobWhite, you're really gettin' out there, eh? I think yeh need to go back and re-read the materials and then talk to some good BSA trainers who understand organizational relationships.

 

Chartered Organizations have responsibility. In fact, they can be sued when they fail to exercise it properly. If they have responsibility, they must also have authority so as to exercise that responsibility. That authority can be vested any number of ways.

 

Mostly what you're missin' is that da BSA doesn't spell these things out very clearly because that's not the BSA's role. It's up to the Chartered Organization to determine the structure and scope of authority of their members and volunteers, including the CC and COR. They are free to do that in any way they like - create bylaws, use the norms of religious canon law, exercise open democracy, whatever. In some CO's, a chief executive might have final say; in others a board of directors or board of elders, in still others, a vote of the congregation. In the area of governance, the BSA entirely yields to da CO.

 

For example, there's a COR signature line on the adult app, and an IH signature line on the charter. But in a CO, the real authority may be elsewhere, eh? It might need the board of elders to approve a charter. Approving a new volunteer may require CO youth protection training and a CO background check by the diocesan office as well as vetting by several people on da youth ministry team. An IH might not have authority to agree to the Charter, and a COR might not have authority to approve a volunteer. The signature line does not indicate authority to act as an individual, it only indicates approval of the organization as certified by a representative of whatever body really has authority.

 

Yah, sure, it is possible for a CO to grant the CC the authority you talk about within its governance structure, eh? But it's happily fairly rare, because it's one of da worst ways to be structured. Just as a line on a form doesn't imply authority for the IH or COR, the line on a form doesn't imply authority for the CC. In da business, NFP, or government worlds, the board chair or CEO typically is designated as signatory for contracts, but that does not mean they have authority to execute contracts without the approval of the board (or other enabling institutional structure like bylaws, etc.).

 

All this is why you won't find anything in the BSA literature that even hints that a CC has the authority you claim, eh? Not a word. But if you read carefully, you will find that the BSA does list those things as roles of the committee. For example, the unit committee approves a boy's Eagle Project, but the Committee Chair typically signs da form. The unit committee approves events and the annual calendar, but the Committee Chair signs da forms. The unit committee vets and recommends new adult leaders and volunteers, but the Committee Chair signs the forms.

 

It's an ordinary legal convention, eh? Just because it's a pain to get everyone on a board or committee to sign a piece of paper.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

Interesting discussion. I was an instructor for committee training long ago, long before the new "Committee Challenge." One of the points that was made was that although concensus was a good thing, neither voting nor concensus was needed for the CC to act. Until relieved, the CC is the ultimate authority in the unit (okay . . . but let's the the IH and CR out of it for now). Now, that's not the way that most things work . . . people discuss and vote until they are blue in the face but that's the way it could work.

[NeilLup]

Hello Michael,

 

We do get wandering in the weeds sometimes, don't we?

 

To get back to your original question, a few thoughts:

 

1) The SM pretty much controls the youth leadership structure of the unit. So in your unit, what the SM says pretty much goes. Under unusual circumstances, that might be overridden by the committee, chartered organization, etc. but normally that happens right before a change of SMs.

 

2) Having spent time in both the military and the BSA, I get troubled when people use the term "chain of command" in the BSA. We don't give commands. We do have a leadership structure and I believe that the formal leadership structure is rather simple

SM-SPL-PL-Scout

 

The other leaders are helpers, mentors, assistants, advisors, etc. If one of those people in the leadership structure wishes to put someone else in the structure, they can do so. So if the SPL wished the ASPL to take responsibility for a couple of the patrols while he retained responsibility for the other couple, that would be within the prerogative of the SPL to do.

 

One possible exception to this involves the Troop Guide. That position is intended as mentor/patrol leader of the New Scout Patrol. As those New Scouts get older and more experienced, the Troop Guide becomes more of a mentor and less of a patrol leader. Ultimately, the New Scout patrol can either have rotating patrol leaders or elect their own patrol leader. Troop Guide can be a very useful and strong position as it helps new Scouts get started right.

 

3) It can be useful to think about not what job you would like to hold but rather what you would like to DO. What would you like to do in your Troop that holding the job of JASM would enable you to do? What is it that your Scoutmaster would like you to do that holding the job of Troop Guide would enable and charter to you to do? It is exceedingly important that you and your SM be on the same page in terms of what you will be doing, otherwise one or both of you will be disappointed.

 

4) And to make that happen, you need to talk with your SM in a polite, friendly, non-advancement Scoutmaster Conference. Ask to talk with your SM. Find out what he or she wants you to do and why they want you to be the Troop Guide. Tell them what you want to do. See if you can get an agreement, both in terms of tasks and of timing.

 

5) Negotiation is a wonderful thing, both to learn and to practice. It is totally appropriate if, in a polite, friendly, non-confrontational and non-threatening way, you indicate that you would like to be JASM and ask "If I take the job of Troop Guide now and do the job that you want done, when that job is finished, will you please appoint me JASM when I turn 16?" This makes matters very clear. But you have to be prepared if, for some reason, the answer from your SM is "no." And, in that case, you need to clarify the reasons and see if you can address them.

 

6) JASM is commonly not a "line" position but rather is a "staff" position. (If you're a SciFi fan, read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" to clarify the difference.) The JASM is an adviser and counselor to the SPL and the other youth leaders in the Troop. Serving as a mentor to new Scouts as Troop Guide is a great way to learn about mentoring and showing your SM that you are ready to mentor the SPL when you turn 16. But don't assume that you are in the line of authority as JASM unless the SM says you are. Sometimes, the JASM is given direct responsibility in some area like equipment. That differs from Troop to Troop.

 

7) Your Troop is not the end of the world. If you are not happy with the opportunities in your Troop, you can try to become a leader in the OA if you are an OA member (start off as Troop OA Representative.) Or you could join a Venturing Crew and be a leader there.

 

Growth is a matter of change and learning. You have a wonderful opportunity. If at all possible, get your Scoutmaster to join with you in this growth opportunity and work with your Scoutmaster to help you get to where you want to go. Frankly, it's doing that kind of thing that most Scoutmasters enjoy most and why they spend the time and effort to be Scoutmasters.

 

Have a great journey!

[Bob White]

"Interesting discussion. I was an instructor for committee training long ago, long before the new "Committee Challenge."

 

How is that posibble? There was no committee specific training in the BSA prior to Troop Committee Challenge.

 

Beavah

While your post is loaded with your personal view on things there is nothing in it supported by the the BSA.

 

For instance who the "real force is" in a organization has nothing to do with the BSA charter concept or unit structure.

 

When a lawsuit is filed against a corporation or organization it is filed against one or more or its corporate officers.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

There is no chain of command in Boy Scouts!

 

As you can see Michael there is great disparity in how even the adults leaders view and understand the scouting program. A lot probably depends on how and when they were trained, as well as by each individuals understanding of the program.

 

Think of scouting in a comparison to the govenermental structure of the US. We elect a State Represetative from our local area to represent us at the state level. He is not our boss, we do not work for him. He respresents or needs and interests to others who then then vote on a decision. All communities are then bound by that decision. Will all communities agree on that same decision? No, but as a society we agree to follow the decision of the representataive government. Sound familiar? In scouts we call it the PLC

 

The representation flows both ways. He represents us to the government and he represents the decisions of the government to us.

The same as a Patrol Leader.

 

A patrol leader is someone you elect to represent your patrol's needs and wishes to the Patrol Leaders Council. They make decisions that the entire troop agree to follow, through the representation of your Patrol Leader.

 

Is the Senior Patrol Leader the boss of the PL? No. Nor is the Governor the boss of the state representatives or senators.

 

The role of the SPL is to help coordinate, teach, and develop the patrol leaders for the benefit of the entire troop, just as the role of the Patrol leader is to coordinate, teach and develop the patrol for the good of the whole patrol.

 

The Scoutmaster is not the boss of the SPL. The Scoutmaster is there to help the SPL develop a vision for the succeess of the troop and to teach and develop the leadership skills in the junior leaders through coachoing and mentoring.

 

Depending on the size of the troop these goals can big too big for one person, so the SPL may have assistants who act on his behalf and do the same job but to a select sub group. For instance one Assistant SPL might work in support of the troop officers while the SPL works to support the PLs.

 

The Scoutmaster might have an assistant to work in support with the ASPL that works with troop officers while the SM works with the SPL.

 

There is no real chain of command...there is a system of support.

 

 

 

This is how the BSA program has been designed for many years. I remember that as a scout in the 60's this is how I was taught the unit operated. This is how I was trained as a junior leader in my troop.

 

When I became an adult leader in the mid 70's this is how the program was taught. When I became a scout leader trainer in the 80s this is how the program was taught. And it is still taught this way today.

 

At the unit level there are various underlying layers of support leading up to the individual patrol.

 

A leaders role in scouting is not to command a group or individual. His job is to help them learn and succeed. He is not their boss or commander he is a friend, coach, and mentor.

 

The Scouting program is not a unique approach to leadership it is however a unique approach for allowing youth the opportiunity to lead themselves through a representative government.

 

It is a model for good citiizenship, and as a citizen in the US no one is your boss, you live in a partnership with others in your community, some are there to help you and you are there to help others. It is a representative republic, there are checks and balances as in our own governmental system, but there is NO chain of command when you follow the Methods of the BSA program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

When a lawsuit is filed against a corporation or organization it is filed against one or more or its corporate officers.

 

Thanks for my laugh of the day! That's hysterical.

 

Me thinks you're confusing service of process with named parties to a suit, eh?

 

I suspect it's that lack of familiarity with corporate governance that's what's causin' your confusion about da BSA chartering structure. It can certainly lead to misinterpretation of roles and responsibilities. Happily, most volunteers don't really need an understandin' of those relationships to do a fine job workin' with kids.

 

I agree with you completely on the "no chain of command, just a system of support".

 

Beavah

 

P.S. MichaelOA, yeh can see how silly we adults can get over this stuff, eh? Be prepared for that when you meet with your Scoutmaster. Be patient with him and all us old farts. Yeh might be tryin' to get him to think of how positions in a troop work a bit differently, and that will take some time to sink in!

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[MichaelOA]

I think I got it now, I am going for Troop Guide, I understand what I am supposed to do in this position and how to do it. I haven't posted back because the last 2-3 pages haven't left a spot for me to say anything without interrupting the conversation. Thanks for the help everyone. After 6 months of being troop guide, I plan to be the OA Rep. come my 16th birthday my scoutmaster wants me to become a JASM (hope I am still a good leader in a year ) So I guess that's my future in scouting

 

(I hope by then I am very close to eagle, or am an eagle.)

[John-in-KC]

Michael,

 

That is very cool. Trust me, you will stumble. Not a one of us here has not stumbled in early leadership (or in life). When you stumble, stop, think back on what happened and why, resolve to avoid that stumble again, apologize if you hurt anyone in particular, and then press on.

 

See if you can still get to your Council's NYLT training this summer. It will be worth it as you serve your patrol. If you hit roadblocks, ask your SM to run some interference with the Reservation Director or the District Commissioner.

 

 

[MichaelOA]

Actually, I already did NYLT last year, and either way our council only does it once every two years. (I was one of the guinea pigs last year was my council's first ever NYLT.) But I will most likely be attending next year, I got offered to serve as staff (troop guide) so I will see what I can do next year, and it never hurts to get some review.(This message has been edited by MichaelOA)

[John-in-KC]

Very cool, you will find teaching is a better tool for locking in learning than taking the course itself.

 

Enjoy your service as a TG. Keep plugging away to the Eagle.

[scoutingagain]

"I think I got it now, I am going for Troop Guide, I understand what I am supposed to do in this position and how to do it. "

 

Wise decision.

 

SA