The Official Chain of Command?

[Gold Winger]

"A team does not require someone to bark out commands to get the job done and nothing in the BBSa suggests tat it does."

 

You must have a strange life. In 30 years, I've never had a boss who barked out orders.

[Stosh]

Gee, that's strange then that there are so many posts reflecting the problem of people not doing what they're told, older boys won't listen to the younger leaders, SM's telling the kids what to do, PLC's telling peole what to do, etc. etc. etc. Sounds like there are very few units out there then that are using BSA methods and styles of leadership. All of which I find strange because I don't seem to have that problem with the units I am involved with.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

I doubt that you have enough data from the relatively few posters on this forum to determine that the problem exists to this large of degree throughout the program. I do agree that it seems to be a real problem with many posters on this forum.

 

But isn't that a main reason that the forums exist, for people with problems to seek solutions. If so then naturally there is going to be a large percemtage of posts that reflect units that are not following the program or having trouble following it.

 

I do agree though that while I have helped others deal with these issues they are not problems that have been an issue in any of the troop I have served in. I believe this is the case mainly because we knew these could be hurdles to a good program and we did the worj=k needed to avoid them from developing.

 

In a few cases, what some see as problems are things we just accept as normal human behavior and so we don't get quite so worked up over it and others seem to. Instead do the training or counseling need to improve the situation and moving forward.

 

[acco40]

I agree with Bob White on the fact that there is no real chain of command but I'm guilty of telling the boys to follow the chain of command.

 

The BSA is not the military. We don't issue orders to subordinates. However, this "boy led" concept is new to many of the Scouts and parents. For most of their young lives, the person in charge albeit a teacher, coach, father, mother, etc. has always been an adult. I know that we often joke that the phrase we Scoutmasters utter most often is "go ask your patrol leader." Some of the Scouts feel more comfortable getting leadership from an adult and not their peers. Even at work, I've seen young engineers go around their immediate supervisor, who is usually less experienced than the senior management to ask questions. However, this can be irksome.

 

Also, every time an SA weighs in to help direct an individual Scout, it may undermine the Patrol Leader for that Scout so it should only be done judiciously. Therefore, as Scoutmaster I see my main interface to be with the SPL and the SAs on an outing and at troop meetings.

 

Now, as Scoutmaster I really don't see myself as "reporting to" the CC and I challenge anyone to show me why they think a Scoutmaster should. The CC and SM "run" different parts of the program. Neither "reports to" each other. The committee supports the Scoutmaster, handles administration tasks and recruits the SM and SAs. Nothing states that it "oversees" the SM.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Bob White]

Acco40

Who signs the adult leader membership applications? the Scoutmaster or the Committee Chair.

 

Does the scoutmaster have the authority to approve ANY adult membership in the unit?

 

Who is charged with securing and training the scoutmaster?

 

Who owns the unit and who is appoved by the Charter organization head to oversee the operation of the unit?

 

The Scoutmaster may not "answer to" the CC in a military chain of command sense. But the CC has authority over the scoutmaster that the scoutmaster does not have over the CC.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[acco40]

Bob, I can play that game.

Who signs the adult leader membership applications? the Scoutmaster or the Committee Chair.

 

Does the scoutmaster have the authority to approve ANY adult membership in the unit? No.

 

Who is charged with securing and training the scoutmaster? The CO via the COR "secures" the Scoutmaster. The committee recommends candidates/characteristics in consultation with the UC and COR. The steering committee (selected by the COR which could include SAs and/or the current SM) generates a ranked list of candidates. The Scoutmaster is in charge of getting himself trained. Of course, the training coordinator (CM) keeps track of who is trained for what and making sure all are aware of available training.

 

Who owns the unit and who is appoved by the Charter organization head to oversee the operation of the unit? The CO owns the unit. The CO head / IH head approves all adult leaders to carry out the "operation" of the unit via "doing their job." The Scoutmaster and Committtee Chair have different responsibilities. The "operation" of the troop does not fall under one position.

 

The Scoutmaster may not "answer to" the CC in a military chain of command sense. But the CC has authority over the scoutmaster that the scoutmaster does not have over the CC.

 

Now for you - What committee has as its function to support the Scoutmaster?

[Beavah]

Who signs the adult leader membership applications? the Scoutmaster or the Committee Chair.

The Committee Chair and da COR, eh?

 

Does the scoutmaster have the authority to approve ANY adult membership in the unit?

Nope, but in any good unit yeh can bet the SM is consulted and his/her recommendation followed, eh?

Of course, da CC also does not have the authority to approve any adult membership in the unit, eh?

 

Who is charged with securing and training the scoutmaster?

Securin' the scoutmaster: the committee, not the CC.

Trainin' the scoutmaster: da BSA. And, practically speakin', the former SM and other direct-contact leaders who are ASMs

 

Who owns the unit and who is appoved by the Charter organization head to oversee the operation of the unit?

Da CO and da COR.

 

The Scoutmaster may not "answer to" the CC in a militarey chain of command sense. But the CC has authority over the scoutmaster that the scoutmaster does not have over the CC.

False. This would be a misunderstandin' of the relationship as presented in da BSA materials. Now, practically speakin', do some units run this way? Yah, sure. I don't care for it myself. Makes for a poor troop dynamic at the adult level, and leads to all kinds of problems and extra work on da part of the commissioner. It's particularly a problem when da CC is a former SM.

 

The Committee has some important roles to play, eh? But da CC, on his own, has no personal authority in da BSA program.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Can the Committee Chair "fire" the Scoutmaster? Can the Scoutmaster "fire the Committee Chair?

 

Uh, since no one said yes to either, or they should not have said to either, neither "work" for each other, together they present and assure the program is run according to the guidelines.

 

Any unit that gets hung up in who is working for who, or who is over who is wandering a fur piece from the intent of the BSA

[acco40]

Looks like Professor White has two papers to grade.

 

I'm lucky, as a Scoutmaster, my Committee Chair and I get along great. We agree what our responsibilities are (duh, the BSA spells that out) and are usually on the same wavelength. We also have different/complementing personalities.

 

Now, a new dynamic - the parent volunteer (i.e. registered yes but not a dues paying BSA member) vs. the committee member. I can see some possible issues arising out of this but overall I really appreciate the BSA putting in place in black and white that all parents should be invovled.

[Bob White]

Acco

You had 1 correct answer, don't feel bad Beavah had 1.5

 

There is no place on an adult membership application for the Scoutmaster to sign. However every adult application must be approved by the Committee Chair.

 

Does the SM have the authority to approve or remove any adult leader? NO

 

Who is responsibily for ensuring leadership is secured and trained? The Troop Committee (see the first bullet in the Troop Committee Guide under Troop Committee Organization and Responsibilities.

 

 

There ar only two registered but non-payiong positions on scouting. The Tiger Cub Partner a merit badge counselor.

 

Can the Committee Chair remove the Scoutmaster...Yes, with the knowledge of the Charter organization representative or the Charter Instituitional Head. Does the Scoutmaster have any authority over the CC? NO.

 

Who owns the unit and who is appoved by the Charter organization head to oversee the operation of the unit? The CO owns it then sselects the CR and CC to operate it. They selct and approve all other adult positions to assist in the operation.

 

The committee works for the committee chair. The program ia specifically structured that the chair gives assignements to the committee members and they report their progrees at the monthly committee meetings. The "committee" has no group authority to do anything they support the needs of the unit at the direction of the chairman. IF you follow the prescribed program.

 

as I said the SM does not answer to the CC as in a military sense and theprogram supports a partnership relationship beteen the various adult roles, however when puch comes to shove (as it sometimes does) the CC and the CR each has authority over the Scoutmaster that the scoutmaster does not have over either of them.

 

While some may not like that fact, it is a fact none the less.

 

 

As for your new dynamic...there are NO registered but unpaid memberships in a troop. So I do not see how that becomes a factor in your question regarding the scoutmaster answering to the CC.

 

You were perhaps refering to the new ScoutParent initiative. Scoutparent is not a registered membership position. It does not require an adult application. The parent merely checks a box on the YOUTH application stating that they are willing to help.

[acco40]

OGE, since I, as Scoutmaster, can issue the Firem'n Chit and the Committee Chair cannot, I have more power to "fire" him that he does me!

 

Don't confuse arguing of semantics on the position as having internal conflict within the unit. Maybe we are just frustrated lawyers.

 

[Beavah]

Who is responsibily for ensuring leadership is secured and trained?

 

Tut, tut, professor. Yeh changed da question, eh? Your original question was who is responsible for securing and training da SM, eh? The Committee, I'm sure you'll agree, is not responsible for training the SM.

 

I want my half point back!

 

Now, we do have to fix some of your understandin' about da role of a CC, eh? You're confusin' it with the authority of the IH or COR in some cases.

 

Can the Committee Chair remove the Scoutmaster...Yes, with the knowledge of the Charter organization representative or the Charter Instituitional Head.

 

Nah, you're not understandin' da materials. A signature on a form is not the same thing as authority, eh? The authority for securing a Scoutmaster you've already correctly stated lies with the Committee, not the CC. When the Committee recommends a new candidate to replace a current SM, da CC signs the form on behalf of the Committee. It would be dishonest and inappropriate for the CC to sign the form without the formal approval (by vote or consensus) of the Committee.

 

The committee works for the committee chair.

Nah. The committee works for da CO. Yeh won't find any statement anywhere in da BSA literature that says the committee works for the CC. Quite da opposite, eh? The CC works on behalf of the committee - helpin' organize and coordinate its functions. IF you follow the prescribed program, that is .

 

when push comes to shove...CC and the CR each has authority over the Scoutmaster that the scoutmaster does not have over either of them.

Again, false. That statement only applies to da CR, and to a more limited extent to the Committee as a whole.

 

One of da things that's necessary when readin' BSA materials is to have an understanding of the way Committees and boards work in the rest of the world, eh? The BSA system is patterned after that, because that's what people know and understand. Otherwise we'd need a much longer Committee Guide which included explanations of how "the committee (and SM) works for the committee chair". Just like in da rest of the world, in the BSA system the committee chair has no independent authority, except when he/she is speakin' or signing on behalf of the committee. The authority is with da board, not its chair.

 

While some may not like that fact, it is a fact none the less.

 

B

 

 

[acco40]

Yikes! One correct? I think if you carefully read what I wrote that your scoring method leaves something to be desired.

 

Your logic confuses me. The Scoutmaster, in conjunction with the CO can remove of CC. Yes, I know, the SM has not authority on his own, just like the CC has no authority on his own to remove a SM. So I really don't follow your logic.

[Bob White]

The SM has NO authority over the CC. The SM has no say in the approval or removal of the Committee chair. You can only be removed by the person or persons who approved your membership.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think acco was makin' a "real world" argument, eh?

 

If a Scoutmaster approaches a COR and makes a convincin' argument that the CC is a problem, there's gonna be a new CC, eh?

 

Same with a committee that votes to replace its CC and presents that to da IH.

 

Practically speakin', we all hope this "when push comes to shove" stuff happens only rarely. IMO it happens frequently only when a CC oversteps his/her bounds (or gets lazy) and begins appointin' people to positions on his/her own. Appointin' positions is the most important thing we do, and whether it's to fill a vacancy or make a replacement, it should be done right. That means it should be done only with the actual involvement and affirmative recommendation of da committee.

 

B