Patrol Gear: Light & Lean vs. Car Camping

[Stosh]

Solution to the national forest problem, don't camp in national forests. There are plenty of places that don't require the use of fossil fuel to cook on. A #10 can makes a great stove that will still work on natural fuels rather than carrying flamable liquids into the forests. A #10 stove can burn wood, charcoal and wax. I'm not talking campfires here, I'm talking cooking fires/stoves, limited, and confined. A wood cook fire can be done on a picnic table top and not leave a mark. It's just an issue of education and conservation. Everyone having a personal white gas stove is not conservation in my book, at times it's a necessity, but not conservation. Sometimes we think the latest and greatest is the best, but sometimes the tried and true works just as good and sometimes a lot more fun.

 

As far as the website that Gunny posted, it sure looks like an expensive #10 can with a tuna can burner to me! It's interesting how the gentleman "invented" something that is nothing more than a fancy schmancy stove I have used for years and got for free.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Beavah]

Yah, I reckon worryin' about burnin' a few ounces of white gas to make dinner when yeh burned dozens of gallons or more gettin' the troop to the camping area and back is straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

 

Yeh release a lot more CO2 (and other gunk) into the air with a fire than a stove, just because it's so much less efficient.

 

I'm fond of cookin' on fires myself, in areas and at times when the risk is low, and doin' it right. But I've also been to lots of places where there's been way too much traffic and fire damage, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[GernBlansten]

Around here, there are three types of land, private, USFS and parks. The parks are most restrictive (usually no fires at all), followed by the USFS and hardly any land owner welcomes strangers camping on their land.

 

The issue with fire bans and cooking with natural fuels is the ability to extinguish the flame instantly. If you can't just turn it off, it usually is banned during those times. Yes, even charcoal BBQs are banned here during those times. So a contained natural fire using charcoal or wood in a #10 can does not meet the regulations.

 

Another issue with using liquid fuel powered backpacking stoves for patrol cooking...doesn't the G2SS recommend only propane or butane? I suppose to avoid the inevitable flare ups and spilled fuel.

[kenk]

Thanks for all your great advice. I'll bring it to this weekend's PLC meeting.

 

ALL chemical fuels (Coleman fuel, kerosine, propane) require that adult supervision be provided.

 

The only real difference in how the GTSS treats Coleman fuel/gas/kerosine compared to propane is that it specifically says that "Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents."

 

Around here there aren't restrictions on wood fires (in approved fire pits), but more & more of the parks are starting to forbid us from picking up dead wood from the forests. They emphasize that the wood needs to be there to help build soil. We have to bring our own wood in with us - and then what isn't used can't be taken back out in order to prevent spread of Gypsy Moths.

 

[Beavah]

Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents.

 

Yah, that's a riot, eh? I expect all of us carry ventilated lock boxes with us on our backpacking trips.

 

I was surprised to find this back in G2SS. Seems like I remember it from years ago, somethin' that got pulled out of the NCS camp standards (from OSHA proper storage of volatiles regulations) and inserted inappropriately into G2SS. I remember it finally gettin' removed from G2SS. Seems like someone resurrected it.

 

I'm more disturbed by the other bits, like "when lighting a stove... open the stove valve quickly for two full turns and light... then adjust down." If anybody actually read G2SS and followed those instructions, they'd be dangerous.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad]

>>There are plenty of places that don't require the use of fossil fuel to cook on. A #10 can makes a great stove that will still work on natural fuels rather than carrying flamable liquids into the forests. A #10 stove can burn wood, charcoal and wax. I'm not talking campfires here, I'm talking cooking fires/stoves, limited, and confined.

[Stosh]

One's gotta love this in the box thinking.

 

If there's a major ban on burning, plan your menu without heated foods. Leave the stove and fuel at home, enjoy the lighter packs and no one's going to starve to death in the process.

 

If one can take stoves, fine, take the lightest option if one can get free fuel there, great, if not take something along with you.

 

If you can do a campfire, leave the stoves at home and cook on wood.

 

What everyone seems to forget is there are plenty of options out there that can be adapted to endless constraints placed on the boys. Let them do a little problem solving instead of trying to shoe-horn a solution into a complex problem.

 

For every exception this forum poses, I can offer an alternative solution, and for every alternative solution I propose, the forum will dig until they find some obscure "rule" out there that will make the trip impossible. For those folks, stay home and cook on the gas grill in one of the member's back yards. For the rest of you, evaluate your situation, plan accordingly.

 

And for those who are a little paunchy, try a bag of gorp and leave a few of those pounds along the trail. A person might be a little uncomfortable but at my AARP age, I can still keep up with boys that carry twice the gear. The best piece of equipment for backpacking is one's brain.

 

Try backpacking with a wool blanket, canvas shelter half, leather shoes that have no padding or arch, wool uniform, a back pack that has no waist belt and 20# of leather equipment and a 10# weapon and your camp is 5 miles from the parking lot and it all has to be carried in one trip. If one thinks this is crazy, so be it, there will be 12,000 others with me just as crazy as I am.

 

Those that fail to plan, plan to fail. It's as simple as that.

 

Stosh

 

Stosh

[anarchist]

jblake47,

 

Fuel stoves vs wood/charcoal is not just a national park problem. Many state and local parks now do not allow 'policing up' wood for fires...last year in Virginia there was a state-wide fire ban that included charcoal (even in grills) in state and national parks! No stoves meant cold meals.

 

And your "in the box" comment is just plain outa line...try doing the boundary waters for ten day on a no cook menu...not too many happy campers I'll bet! But then maybe all your AARP body can handle is a weekend trip, so two cold meals and some gorp is all you need...(I know, not kind nor friendly...just a wee taste of your own medicine)

 

Using "go green" as an excuse for talking down "stove use" just does not work...many areas are beginning to talk about the pollution caused by burning wood and are slowly thinking up ways to ban even fireplaces or stoves in our homes from burning wood! Many areas do not allow you to bring your own wood (bio-threats). And this doesn't even touch on the vehicular pollutants we all spew out...is every one to hike from home to camp? Of course not. We do the best with what we have. And no one thinking "in the box" here said stoves were the "end all" simply that they had to be part of the plan...I think you know what a plan is...right? (I know, just another taste...if you want to talk down to the "inside the box'ers" expect to get some of it back.

 

I love to camp and use wood and charcoal whenever I can; but I have also learned that we have to be ready for all the possiblities. Stoves are a part of what we do, sometimes an essential part.

 

In the end I think we can all (or most) agree, that part of our "job" should be to teach and familiarize our scouts with all types of cooking systems so they can make appropriate and safe decisions and so they can learn to enjoy this outdoor stuff as much as we adults do!

 

(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[Gunny2862]

jblake47,

just as a Whisperlight isn't the only petro-fuels stove out there I used the littlbug purely as an example of type - not saying there aren't better, cheaper ways to go. For my Personal(non-Scout) camping I'm now on Alcohol stoves (Homemade)and candles, with an Indian (small) wood fire for cooking without using the alcohol when I can.

 

But I'd like to see a gear list from a Troop that is successfully avoiding the heavy lift(Trailer) style of camping.

[Stosh]

If a person says one can't do it this way and another says one can't do it that way, and still another says one can't do it their way or somebody else's way, they're pretty much putting the situation into a box. To repeatedly wail and gnash their teeth in anguish is unfortunate for them in their situation. So be it, but to me that way of thinking seems to merely box people in. If all one does is offer up what can't be done, then the only solution is to either think outside the box or stay at home. It wasn't meant as a put down, just an observation of reality.

 

I guess I'm not too familiar with the described "boundary waters" of the example given, but as far as BWCA, if the site doesn't have a pit toilet AND a fire ring it is not an official site and can't be camped in. To think one needs to have a cookless menu in the BWCA is a rather weak argument because one can't camp there unless they have a fire ring. And yes after many trips up there the only cooking I do is still with wood. An aluminum Dutch oven is the BWCA's best friend. Yep, blueberry muffins for breakfast at least a couple of times during the week. Fresh breadsticks to go with the pan-fried walleye is great as well.

 

And as far as us old foggies roughing it, 45 years of wisdom has resolved a lot of issues that very seldom do I actually suffer on an outing. Even with limited resources I eat better than most. I do own a backpack stove, surprisingly, but I use it only as a last resort, and it's been years since I've had need of it.

 

And maybe woodburning might be banned in "many states", but our DNR explicitly wants us to dig out the underbrush and clear out areas around campsites of downed wood. Here the problems of forest fires are increased with woods full of dead undergrowth. The Forest Service thinks it's going to burn one way or the other and prefers the boys doing it in a campfire rather than going up in a forest fire.

 

We have national forests that we camp in, we have state forests we camp in, we have state parks we camp in, we have county parks we camp in, we have bike trails throughout the state that have campsites in for camping, the DNR has campsites, people camp on beaches and sandbars in our rivers all the time. It's rather unfortunate that some boys around the country don't have the opportunities our boys do, but whereas my advice may not apply to their situation, those problems don't apply to us. Please feel free to ignore my comments if they don't apply to your situation, but remember, there are others out there that are not restricted by your particular limitations. After all, this thread is on Light & Lean vs. Car Camping. If it's a real problem, just stick with car camping, there are a lot of troops that feel this is the only way to go. I've done a ton of car camping, but I've done a ton of light and lean. Both offer good and bad options.

 

Gunny, I have used the alcohol stove as well, but I found I was carrying more fuel to generate the same amount of heat than with the white-gas. My stove was also too open and if spilled would be a disaster. Maybe you have a better setup than mine. I find that a zip lock sandwitch bag with 6-8 briquettes is enough fuel for an individual meal using a mess kit. With a very sharp belt ax one can generate enough chips to keep a #10 stove going quite nicely out of a rather small piece of wood. As I mentioned before and as you have indicated, wood stoves don't need bonfire/campfire amounts of wood to cook a meal.

 

My goal is to figure out how the Civil War soldier could build a fire and make a cup of coffee from scratch during their 5 minute march break.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[TAHAWK]

A Timberline II tent, or something in that class (apx 7 lbs), breaks down into two managable parts for backpacking and works OK in weekend car camping. We have used them for some years.

 

When the kids get bigger and start to outgrow the 5'x7' TLII, they are also more likely to buy their own tents.

 

2 Scouts inna' tent = X noise

3 Scouts inna' tent = 2X noise

4 Scouts inna' tent = 4X noise

 

We found some 1 lb. grates with 8" folding gate legs. Open, they securely hold the large pot from the BSA Cook Kit (8qts.). A single-burner backpacking stove slides under the grate. Presto! Single burner heats pots securely. The grates also hold a pot over an open fire.

 

Another Troop saw our grates, couldn't find a source, and made their own. The are welded together and seem to work as well. The just lash them on the outside of packs.

 

We use two-burner propane Colemans when car-camping.

 

(As a safety matter, we do not allow any horsin' around or mobbing up in the "kitchen." We think supervised trust is part of the ramp-up to driving 3000 lbs. of car at 65 mph at age 16.5. This is just one example. We do watch.)

 

(I do not morn the passing of Troop GI-style KP lines with the final HUGE vat of boiling water. Now if a cold, final chlorine rinse would just show up in the literature.)

 

 

Our Patrols each have 1 12' x 12' nylon tarp, ridge pole, and end poles. When car camping, the framework is used to create a dining fly. Pitched low and with due regard for the wind direction, it's good to go even in driving rain. Backpacking, the framework stays at home, and the fly gets rigged with paracord between trees.

 

 

As a Scout on backpackers, my California Troop mostly cooked with WWII surplus "Squad Stoves" in No. 10 cans. Every Scout carried one No. 10, and they were cook pots, water buckets, fire buckets, and KP pots. Given the fire bans almost every late Spring-Fall, it was stoves or no cooking. Even then, often the only cooked meal was Saturday night.

 

The No. 10's also went to make what we called "Hobo Stoves." They seemed safer than open fires and were quite efficient. We used them when fires were allowed.

[Knot Head]

How to make a coffee can (or big tomato can or whatever) stove. The plans are basically the same regardless of the size can you want to use. When the can burns out, get a new can. The scouts can easily make these themselves with a little direction and safety supervision for the use of the electic drill. Nothing like cooking your meal over a stove you built.

 

http://www.outdoors-magazine.com/spip.php?page=article&id_article=155