Patrol Gear: Light & Lean vs. Car Camping

[kenk]

My son's formerly small troop has two new patrols coming in, and that means it time to start buying more gear. This brought up the topic of "standardized patrol gear" and exactly what should be on that list.

 

From what I've found in internet searches it seems that most patrol gear consists of car camping kind of stuff - 2-burner Coleman stoves, lanterns, dutch ovens, big carport canopies, tables, etc...

 

I'm wondering if anyone knows of patrols that have instead taken a lighter, more lean approach - something like backpacking where Scouts are using one or two small one-burner stoves, no lantern, lightweight nylon flies, no tables, etc...

 

What are your thoughts on the benefits and drawbacks of these different gear options?

 

Thanks,

 

Ken K.

[Eagle1982]

I'm all for lean. Not all troops can afford a trailer, to haul more and more stuff around. Lean forces you to put more effort into planning and logistics. To learn to get by on what you have, instead of pulling out another toy, I mean tool. Hauling less stuff, and thus buying less stuff to haul means you are acting more thrifty. You are saving gas and thus have a smaller "carbon footprint"...

 

However, lean has some drawbacks:

(1) You could do single burner stoves, but they are not nearly as stable, and if a table gets bumped, or someone stumbles, you have a pot flying one way, and a fiery bottle of gas going another.

(2) Lighter tents may not be as durable. Is it being thrifty to replace stuff more often? Throwing older equipment into the land fills.

 

There is no clear cut answer. It really comes down to what kind of troop do you want to be? If you want to be a troop that does all sorts of high adventure all the time, you may want to steer towards the liteweight option. If you will do mostly car camping, steer towards "car camping" type of gear.

 

If you get quality car camping type gear, you can always rent liteweight stuff on an as needed basis, if they are only used once in a while.

 

[CA_Scouter]

Ditto Eagle...

 

We go lightweight all the time now, even if we do a car camping trip. Less stuff to haul around, we don't need large vehicles to carry gear, we reinforce Leave No Trace principles, we don't need 4 pickup trucks for 10 scouts, etc...

 

I disagree on the lightweight tent being less durable statement. Been in the same REI Halfdome for 5 years running now and no signs of replacing it anytime soon. Lightweight tents are engineered for durability these days, which is of course reflected in the price.

 

I do agree with the stove stability issue. We have the old GAZ type stoves for the scouts and I wince a bit each time I see them in use. I've seen some newer gas canister models that look more stable - I think there is a 'Primus' model out there that looks good, but I don't know the price yet or if I can get the committee to buy us new gear.

 

Look at it this way - ANYONE can go car camping. It takes a bit of training, ingenuity and perserverance to go light... AND it makes for some great skillbases...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

We are a light weight patrol Troop. We spent lots of money several years back to build great and wonderful patrol boxes that could cripple a scout for life if he tripped. For a lot of reasons, we decided to experiment with light weight patrol gear that could be carried in with backpacks if so desired. We were at a point of needing large trucks to haul gear. So we made a decision to make the patrol portable by cars only if the need every came.

 

There is some really good lightweight gear out there. The only disadvantage is lightweight gear is typically better quality which means higher priced. But it is typically more durable. Except for our four man dome tents, all the patrol gear fits in a milk carton including a rain fly. We typically use personal tents on backpacking trips.

 

Stoves seem to be the main worry here, but we found the Coleman Exponent Xpedition Two Burner Stove works very well for both the troop campouts and highadventure. They are pricy at about $85 dollars, but they are very robust with only one minor failure of our six stoves in eight years of use. We use them every month on all our campouts and including all our high adventure treks like Philmont and Northern tier. Since they are two burner stoves, they are very stable on the ground.

 

When we made the change to light weight camping, we thought the scouts would hate the shift from patrol boxes and the old Coleman stoves, but they never looked back. They hated those boxes and now all they do is take up space in storage. We have given a couple boxes to new troops looking for starter gear. Going light has worked very well for us. The boys love it.

 

Barry

 

[Beavah]

Yah, if I'm rememberin' right, Kudu had somethin' on his web site about his troop switchin' to lightweight gear. Yah, here it is:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm

 

He may want to comment further.

 

I've seen plenty of kids usin' lightweight stoves over the years. The things might not look real stable, but they're pretty darn good if yeh don't overload 'em. I'm talkin' things like MSR's whisper and dragonfly series. Key is not to be tryin' to cook for 12 people on one stove. That kind of big pot of boilin' water probably isn't safe for kids to handle no matter what the stove size is, eh?

 

Other thing is to keep kids from sittin' at picnic tables while they cook. Standin' is OK, but sittin' you're just a target for spilled liquids.

 

Havin' seen a lot of troops over the years, I can say that there's funny ways in which da gear makes the troop. If yeh have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If yeh have a trailer, yeh only tend to look for trailer sites for most of your trips, and yeh shy away from lots of real navigation and such. If you have flexible gear, yeh usually have a wider-rangin' outdoor program. Not "oh, no, we've got to spend a couple of months gettin' backpacking gear together" but rather, "hey, we can switch from da canceled camporee to the North Country Trail next weekend, let's do that!"

 

Beavah

 

[cubdadinnj]

Perhaps the biggest change in "camping" that I've seen is the amount of gear that is schelpped along.

 

And I wonder for whose benefit? The boys or the Dads (and Moms...).

 

We want our Scouts to learn self-reliance, leadership, being "thrifty," right? So for a weekend campout, why do we need to bring tables, portable kitchens, screened in tents for dining, etc etc.

 

Trailer troops, mostly becasue they can, seem to go far overboard here. I've seen troops who literally bring along nearly all the gear they own in their trailer -- when only a fraction is needed for a 1 or 2 night camping trip. And it doesn't seem to matter if the campout is 25 miles away or 300 miles.

 

Let me add, that from the perspective of being respectful of our environment and resources, all this schlepping is even more absurd.

 

I don't see any reason, why a patrol of 5 - 8 guys can't bring everything they need for a couple of nights on their backs.

 

/p

[anarchist]

Kenk,

 

A lot of it has to do with adult support and troop finances.

 

Our Troop has the luxury of doing it either way- but it was a long time coming and a lot of work.

 

Light and lean has it's own set of issues...most expedition stoves are twice to three time the cost of a coleman "double burner" and even the much loved MSR Dragonfly is really only a three person (maybe four) stove...and meals for more than six people end up being time killers and usually fairly un- inspiring...

 

If you have a few hundred dollars to spend on kitchen gear for each 6-8 scouts go for it! But keep in mind you will need several fuel bottles ($10.00 each) and two Dragonflys ($100+ each) and two smaller cook sets at$50 each (Even the "fly" has issues with an six to eight quart "pasta pot")...to do the same job as a coleman stove ($39.00) and a ($70) patrol cook kit.

 

We were mainly a truck camping troop excepting a couple of pack trips annually where the troop borrowed my gear...We branched off to do Canoeing and started to slowly pick up expedition equipment (stoves, water filters, super light nylon flys, etc.) now the patrols can take their pick if they want to go light or go dutch oven crazy....

 

The thing I have noticed in the last 11-12 years is the ebb and flow of adults willing to support hiking...some years it is not a problem other years the same leaders are over loaded meeting demand...having options is nice.

Anarchist

 

 

[Beavah]

Even the "fly" has issues with an six to eight quart "pasta pot"

 

8 quarts = 2 gallons = 17.6 lbs of fluid plus da weight of the pot.

 

That's a lot of weight in a dangerous, boiling substance to be entrusted to a middle schooler.

 

Investin' in some more appropriate cookware seems like it would be well worth it, safety-wise. Boiling water scalds are among Scouting's most frequent severe injuries.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad]

>>If you have a few hundred dollars to spend on kitchen gear for each 6-8 scouts go for it! But keep in mind you will need several fuel bottles ($10.00 each) and two Dragonflys ($100+ each) and two smaller cook sets at$50 each (Even the "fly" has issues with an six to eight quart "pasta pot")...to do the same job as a coleman stove ($39.00) and a ($70) patrol cook kit.

[hops_scout]

We have gotten to the point where we have gear for both.

 

Last summer the troop bought some backpacking tents and highly suggested a certain brand's pack. Went as far as to offer a "rebate" for buying the backpacks. Each Scout got a backpacking trip paid for by the troop if they bought a backpack at a HUGE discount to start with. I believe some of them ended up paying maybe $40-50 for a nice internal frame.

 

We've had a few stoves and filters already. They probably could use to be replaced.

 

On the other side of things, we've got Timberline tents that have all been bought within the last 3-4 years and we've got more 2-burner stoves than you know what to do with.

[Stosh]

I know I'm out of line here, but with all the $$$$'s going towards fuel, stoves, gear, etc. whatever happened to cooking using a $5 messkit and free wood in the woods? I've camped an entire weekend this way and had great meals. If the messkit get's wrecked, another $5 gets you back in action.

 

Stosh

[GernBlansten]

In our neck of the woods, wildfire season starts around May and goes until first snow in October. Usually accompanied with campfire bans in all national forests.

[LaurieBear]

Hi Stosh,

 

I think the wood thing is great, who doesnt' LOVE a campfire, but, if the troop is "conservation" minded, wouldn't the personal stove minimize the impact on the environment?

[Gunny2862]

Here we go into opinion and part of the world info.

 

Lets say for the sake of the discussion that the same impact was felt to build a chemical stove(Whisperlite e.g.) and for a reusable woodburner, (http://www.littlbug.com/). In the examples given I don't think that would be true but...

 

Is a downed tree and its wood less of an impact whether it burns or if it decomposes more slowly?

 

Does the manufacturing of the fuel for the stove have a larger or lesser impact, how about the fuel's packaging cycle?

 

Around here there are parts of the back woods where you can't travel(with a pack and in some areas without one) because of all of the fuel down by ice storms over the last two years. There is plenty of natural fuel(wood) available it is primarily a matter of how to use it safely without sending up the whole forest.

 

I know people think that a whole ecosystem could be lost for want of a single tree in some areas and I'm not in those areas and won't disagree. I also would be more than willing to modify my habits to travel thru their habitats. But here there really isn't much of an argument that burning a little wood wouldn't be a bad thing - unless we are also willing to wait for natures correction - a really really big fire - in which case the wood burns anyway.

[Eagledad]

I am with Stosh about using a fire. We cooked all our meals from fires when I was a scout and it is a huge confidence builder. Scouts today just can see how to do it. When my son was a Troop Guide, he taught all his new scouts to cook on the fire on their first campout. He said that for him, it was one of the fastest ways to bond them as a patrol.

 

However, you would be surprised how many areas are regulated for stoves only. And fire bands have been very common in Oklahoma for several years.

 

I think the problem is we develop habits and dont think out of the box when we can. I like the idea of an all fire cooking campouts to teach not only how to cook with the fire, but how to do KP as well. Anyone remember soaping the pans. Learning those simple skills will give them more choices on their future campouts.

 

Barry