JLT discussion and adult leaders arguing in the middle of a COH

[Joni4TA]

I would say things are REALLY starting to deteriorate badly in the Troop I serve.

 

Last night we had a Troop COH. The SM was unable to attend because his son was having a school choir concert. So the SPL and ASPL MC'd the event with some help from me, The Advancements Coord. - just helped them get the right advancements and recognition onto the table behind them in an orderly fashion so they could find it all without fumbling in front of the crowd.

 

Towards the end of the COH, the SPL was making announcements about upcoming PL elections and the JLT following them. This was supposed to be announced in more detail by the SM but as I said, SM couldn't be at the COH. So the SPL deferred elaboration to me as far as time and place.

 

I said "Yes, JLT will be given by the SM at X time and Y place."

 

(To preface, I have NEVER had a problem or issue with the ASM I am about to discuss.)

 

I was immediately blasted by an ASM who hardly ever shows up for meetings or campouts and offers very little to the Troop. She comes to the COH last night not in uniform, with her son, the boy who became "Eagle Scout" at 14, who hardly ever shows up to meetings, "can't find his uniform" and therefor comes to the COH last night looking dishevveled with wrinkled clothes and unkempt hair.

 

The ASM blasts me loudly, "NO! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JLT." To which I replied, "YES, there is." And then the ASM and her Eagle Scout son both jumped my ass yelling at me in stereo, "NO, THERE"S NOT." So I said, "Well the old JLT is all the Troop has and that's what the SM is giving!"

 

It got ugly.

 

The ASM and her son continued to yell at me about JLT being outdated, and the ASM insisted that "SHE'd been to Philmont last year" and taken some course (I don't recall which one she said) and how the SM can't teach the "NEW NYLT" because HE wasn't a qualified instructor, but SHE was, and SHE needed to train the SM BEFORE any scouts were to get trained and SHE was the only one with the course material. So I retorted, "Then why were the last TWO SPL's not trained by YOU, better yet why were they NOT TRAINED AT ALL?????? She shut up at that point, and we moved on and the SPL closed the COH.

 

I am going to readily admit that it wasn't the time or the place to have the pissing contest. I didn't mean for it to escalate to that level. I should have just zipped my lips and let her and Mr. Obedient - the Eagle Scout - look like the jerks. Instead I jumped right into the jerk pile with them. I felt like I was verbally attacked by both of them and my defenses went up and I reacted. Not making an excuse at all, it's just what happened. I lost control of my tongue/temper.

 

I didn't appreciate being blasted by another adult leader for simply passing on information. I wasn't saying **I** was giving the damn JLT, the SM is! But the SM wasn't there to make the announcement. Her issue should have been with the SM, not raising her voice at me and causing a scene in the middle of a COH. Besides that, the fact that her 16yr old son chimed in with complete disrespect and yelled at me too was DEAD WRONG. Of course she never corrected her son and allowed him to continue to yell at me because he was the perfect mouthpiece for her. All he did was repeat everything she said.

 

Come to find out later, this ASM wants to teach the SM how to train youth using the NYLT course material, but NYLT is a COUNCIL program/course and SHE can't teach the kids in our unit didley squat unless she does it on a COUNCIL frickin level! So she freaked out on me for nothing and opened her mouth and inserted her foot.

 

I already KNEW the old JLT was replaced by TLT - but the TLT leaves MUCH to be desired. However it's what we had here at the Troop level and in lieu of NOTHING (which is what the troop leadership has been used to getting) everyone figured the old JLT was better than zero! The SM, the CC, another Committee Member and myself were ok with the SM using the old JLT video - AND - most parts of the new TLT syllabus. The absent ASM apparently didn't like this idea but only just found out about it yesterday and it pissed her off, clearly! Still not entirely sure WHY though?????

 

My thing is - if the ASM had an objection she should have brought it up AFTER the COH or just simply at another time, period. It wasn't the time or the place. My second observation is, the woman barely shows up for any meetings or campouts and all of a sudden when she hears the old JLT is going to be used she has a problem with that and is out for blood? She prefers NO TRAINING AT ALL (until she sets up Council level training (which we already have) - over the use of a combination of the old JLT and the new TLT????

 

I am not sure if it's related to this argument between the ASM and myself, but last night we had a different ASM resign from the Troop. He claimed he had a project he was working on and it would demand more of his time than he expected, and he didn't want to be just an ASM on paper.

 

I still don't know why the arguing ASM was so adamant about this JLT thing, and why she freaked out on me. Personally I don't even want to talk to her now unless she plans on apologizing to me.

 

And with all the other problems I feel there are in this Troop, we sure didn't need another one. Maybe what's going on is because my voice has been loud about Patrol Method and aims of Scouting lately? Maybe it's because the SM has disengaged somewhat from the Troop and all our ASM's are pretty much sporadic contributors at best? Maybe it's just all because of me trying to effect change? Maybe it's because we've never been boy-led, boy-run nor given the boys the tools to succeed and I have really stressed that, so the ASM feels guilty for not being around to help in that process??

 

I don't know, but I am deeply troubled.

[Gunny2862]

It hurts twice as much when you get kicked for trying to do the right thing, doesn't it? And is compounded when you made yourself part of the problem. We really don't like it when we are the ones kicking ourselves.

 

Yes you've got some issues here.

One thing you might consider, is to approach this person or to find someone else to mediate and approach her with the attitude not of assigning any blame; but to find out if you both want to do things for the boys.

Maybe she is offended because she hasn't been "asked" to help more. If she is traveling to and going to training at Philmont(and paying the Toll for the training) is it possible that she is more motivated than what you are seeing and is frustrated at being an unused resource?

 

Maybe she didn't correctly or properly express what she really meant to(or get to the right venue?) because of her frustration?

 

Try communication, you may find yourself with a new ally. I certainly hope it works out for you!

[Bob White]

using old materials when they have been replaced for quite some time is not realy a good example of "effecting change". While dicussing it at the coh was not good timing , the ones who pointed out that the troop was using outdated and replaced training were correct in what they said.

 

Perhaps you are not the only one frutrated with individuals in the unit. Perhaps there is some frustration with your leadership "style" as well?

[Joni4TA]

It's funny you mention that Gunny! I wish it were the case, that she wanted to be included. Unfortunately I don't think that's it.

 

When the last SPL and ASPL were elected in October 2007, both of the boys were First Class Scouts and generally unprepared to lead. This particular ASM came to the Annual Planning PLC in November 2007 and the SM didn't show up at all. They got 2 months planned and the ASM had to leave due to another committment. No further Troop planning occured until about 4 weeks ago.

 

She reiterated back in Nov '07 how youth leadership training should take place but never once stepped up to the plate to "help" set one up. When recently asked why, her response was "NOT MY JOB, I'm not the SM!" And she claims since she started a new teaching job last August she no longer has enough time to do anything more for the Troop than she's already doing. She also quit as the O/A Advisor for the District and no longer works the District Training team as a Cub Pack Trainer.

 

I guess asking her to help with the upcoming JLT wasn't a top priority of the SM, looking at her level of involvement with the Troop over the last 8-12 months.

 

This important NYLT Teaching Course at Philmont course she took last year - this is the first anyone in the Troop is hearing about it. We knew she went to Philmont with her son last year, but that was all except she had a great time.

 

When asked last night if she was available to help teach the youth leadership on the scheduled date at the end of March, she said that wasn't enough time for her to prepare. She wanted to get with Council and blah blah blah... and didn't think she could have all that together within the next few months.

 

In other words, NO, I am not available to help teach our Troop's youth leadership and I also don't want you folks to use the old JLT or the new TLT, but you MUST wait for me to get my head and ass wired together because ****I**** am the only one on earth who can rightfully teach the boys their youth leadership course!

 

Whatever!

 

The boys in this Troop have been waiting forever!!! I have watched not just one but SEVERAL changes in youth leadership due to the regularly scheduled troop elections and NOT ONE of the new regimes have received any form of JLT in the 2 years I have been a committee member for this Troop. That doesn't have anything to do with this special course this one ASM took at Philmont!!! It has to do with the standards the SM and ASM's have set for the boys in this Troop - basically there are none. And they aren't willing to devote the time to TEACH nor raise them either

[Gunny2862]

Joni, I am well aware of time crunches on people. I'm at Training every weekend this month! Twice for a full day and once for two nights and two amalgamated days. My CC is having to take the boys out on the outing so I can get "Trained" - for the boys. Yeah I'll wear the patch but it's never been about the patch.

 

In my imperfect world we are just stepping into the TLT material. Heck, I've only been a Scouter for less than a year - I'm still trying to get to all of my required Training as SM - (Haven't missed a single in Council opportunity for anything they've offered that I hadn't had yet. Have gone out of District and have gotten in trouble for that, imagine. ) I'm still trying to get myself trained, get experience, borrow virtual experience from others on the forums. Some of whom would rather jump on me rather than teach me...

 

Is she, or anyone, going to stop another Committee or SM or ASM from teaching a TLT, NYLT, JLT curriculum to the Scouts? If so ask them isn't any training better than none?

Wouldn't they rather a Scout knew how to splint a broken arm even if he didn't know how to remove a splinter?

 

Is there anyone who would run JLT, TLT or NYLT for you? If so, see if you can make it work would be my suggestion - if she complains then tell her it is of no use to be an unavailable resource - step up or sit down. Probably a little more kindly than I'm doing it.

[Crew21_Adv]

 

 

 

Joni,

 

 

I briefly read over this posting.

 

The new material is TLT, and is very easy to conduct. The only qualification to conduct it is have a SM, SPL and the PLC present. It should routinely be conducted by the SM and SPL. With just the TLT material alone. It is about an hour maybe two hour orientation towards Troop Leadership. (Maybe three if you have a pizza and a motivational leadership movie)

 

 

As for the ASM. I can empathize; it probably felt like a knife in your back. We all have had dealings with similar people. Sorry it has happened to you.

 

I have been told this on quiet a few occasions, when my mouth worked faster than my brain. I have also told my sons and friends on occasion. "Time and Place".

 

My son had made a crude joking comments during a recent Venturing Crew meeting. As his Advisor, I had to remind him, where we are at, what we are doing, and it is currently the wrong "time and place" for jokes such as that.

 

What the ASM may have said, may have been partially true. Similarly, the ASM, should have been deferred. "This is the wrong time and place, lets discuss this later and send out the correct information"

 

It may be to late to correct the ASM behavior. But possibly address interfering with a COH emcee as being the wrong "time and place" during your next committee meeting.

 

Good luck!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[raisinemright]

A little off topic, but we had a knock down drag out at our pack committee meeting last night. The CM and a DL (and dad) had a difference of opinion regarding crossover for his son. The argument got pretty heated and both had valid points. After a few minutes of venting, the CC simply said "OK, let's move on." Both arguers stopped and the issue was over.

 

It was nice the way it worked out. I wish all differences could be so simple.

[Crew21_Adv]

Joni,

 

Greetings again!

 

Just getting time to read over the entire post... and it looks like I replied too early, but hopefully you get my gist. You had already stated it may have been the wrong time and place. Which was my agenda in replying, but maybe emphasising that to other leaders as well.

 

Will there be a disagreement? Probably yes. And those will probably become loud, vocal, and insulting.

 

But if a discussion like this can be delayed to a more appropriate time. While still a disagreement, it may be handled more civil. Especially by the offending ASM, which interjected at the wrong time during a COH.

 

Good Luck at getting your ASM to see that her knowledge may be valued by the Troop, but the timing is not.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Eamonn]

Joni4TA

I'm not sure how to put this in a nice way.

My great hope is that YOU didn't use the inappropriate language and phrases that you are using in this forum.

I would remind you that we do have parents and youth who visit this site.

I spend my working day with convicted criminals and they don't use the terminology that you seem to think is acceptable.

With great respect I do ask you to refrain from using it in the future.

Eamonn.