How Do You Beat Down SM Defeatism re: Patrol Method??

[Kudu]

Lisabob writes:

 

"And go run those den meetings yourself if you don't think we women are doing it the right way. But last I checked, without lots of involved moms, there wouldn't be very many packs in existence. "

 

That is precisely the problem with Wood Badge: It has been dumbed down to train people how to run dens and packs.

 

"Maybe think about that before you go insulting us."

 

Maybe you should think about the Patrol Method before you go defending Den Mommies.

 

"And FWIW I know a lot of excellent women leaders of troops and crews as well."

 

If there were a single "excellent" woman leader in these forums, she would step up and praise her Patrols for never camping closer than 100 yards apart or never eating in a dining hall at summer camp.

 

Joni4TA's SM would not be able to play Wood Badge Den Daddy if his Patrols were not so close together.

 

Separate the Patrols and everything else follows.

 

Kudu

 

[AnneinMpls]

Kudu, I must say I am surprised by your tone.

What unites us in scouting is our allegiance to our oath and laws. Perhaps a moment spent in reflection may be of benefit.

 

In peace and in the Spirit of Scouting,

Anne in Mpls

[OldGreyEagle]

Since World Jamborees is not camping, then it follows that Scouting does allow scouts to gather in non-camping venues. So, I can say that summer camp with a dining hall is not camping, but is a scouting event. If a scouting event produces memories dear to a scout and makes a positive impression on him about scoutings values. I'll take it, recognizing its not camping.

[Joni4TA]

BobWhite!!! - right on time, with ANOTHER assumption (see my post in Advancements about the Advancement Chair who expects too much and wants to quit - page 3)

 

Bob, Bob, Bob - no dear.......... my husband is NOT my son's current Scoutmaster! he WAS the SM for my son's Troop in the 2004-2005 time frame. Since then we have moved from Okinawa, Japan, to Northern CA, and now we live in TX. So hey - that was 3 Troops ago if you're keeping count!

 

Way to search posts buddy! Did you handpick 'em too?

[Joni4TA]

Now on to an actual reply -

 

I think some of you are right - and as long as the SM wants to run this Troop like a monthly Family Camping Program - that's all it is ever going to be The boys here will never TRULY benefit nor attain the level of pride a REAL Boy Scout should.

 

That's a shame!

[evmori]

;)We beat the last SM to a pulp who acted like this

 

Seriously, I would find a new unit. You are only fighting city hall with little chance of winning.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

['73 Eagle]

First the stated Topic.

 

I hear this same complaint all the time and comiserate with it.

 

Several factors that contribute to it:

1. Scoutmaster with no youth experience as a scout or in a troop where this was the example he saw - if you have no example and poor training you do what you know and are comfortable with.

2. Basic Type A personality that leads to control issues

3. Terrible District Executives and Commisioners that focus on Troop creation and self promotion vs. Mentoring to achieve well run Troops

4. Backlash from a previous SM who thought Boy led meant hands off and completely Boy run which often leads to pandemonium

5. Too few Adults willing to participate in helping to plan, assist, or train Boys to be leaders within the Troop

6. Fatigue - It is easier to set up a communal kitchen than haul all the gear to set one up for 4 different patrols and adults fail to realize that the boys don't learn teamwork and leadership nearly as well in that environment - Plus separate patrol sites mean you actually have to teach the kids skills and then audit what they do.

 

Second Issue

 

Venomous attacks based on gender or some elitist attitude regarding Wood Badge have absolutely no place in Scouting. PLEASE stop working with kids immediately. The rant that you posted here reveals an attitude that will color your interactions with kids, other scouters, and the public that will not reflect well on Boy Scouts in general.

 

I am an Eagle Scout, have been a Den Leader for Cubs, and have been actively involved in running a Troop for the last 4 Years.

 

[Gunny2862]

I don't think that trying to change his actions is going to get you where you want to go.

 

To get his actions to change you have to give him the VISION of how it can be better for the boys.

 

Better enough that IF numbers fall you won't kill him.

Better enough that IF someone doesn't Eagle that would currently be expected to that you won't allow the parents to kill him.

Better enough that when others criticize him because his program isn't doing well as an adult led and isn't fully boy led either that you'll defend him for trying to go where you and the BSA want him to.

Better enough that you'll understand his missteps as he tries to implement a system he may not fully understand.

Better enough to make it worth leaving his comfort zone - after all he's taking a risk leaving something that is producing results.(at whatever level)

 

Do the Committee/ASM's help him enough as it is? If not, why would he open up to the possibility of more work "fixing" problems the boys create when he has his hands full doing it right the first time?

 

I say you don't Beat Down the defeatism, you Raise Up the hope for a better program.

 

From one who is trying to do what you want Your SM to do while dragging a Committee and Legacy of "Adult Led" Scouters. And a Troop who don't trust themselves to change - they've never seen Boy Led modeled anywhere. It a struggle -but I hope and think it will be worth it.

[acco40]

As an engineer, first of all I'm appalled that 300 feet got converted to 300 yards and then attributed to a Brit. B-P, in all probability would have stated 100 meters.

 

Second, I'll give Mr. Horn the benefit of the doubt and assume that he simply want to increase the usage of the patrol method - something I see way too little of in my area.

 

We often go by what is easier, not what is best. Right now, in our troop I struggle to get the Scouts to formuate a program that is not one size fits all. We have 5th graders and high school seniors and no, they should not be doing the same things at troop meetings and on outings but hey, isn't it easier to organize one thing (and then be critical if need be) than actually get off our keister and organize two (or ideally three) programs?

[Joni4TA]

I wish I could even say it's adult-led. It's not at all. It literally IS pandemonium and SM believes hands-off completely is the best. SM tells the boys what they SHOULD be doing every so often, but offers no further guidance. Has not run a TLT.

[Bob White]

Acco40

The program offers what seems a reasonable solution to your multi program problem.

 

One assistant scoutmaster focuses on the New Scout program while another focuses on the Venture Patrol program while the scoutmaster focuses on the experienced Patrol program.

 

Would this be a workable plan that a unit with trained leaders could incorporate?

 

PS

my apologizes for making light of Kudus plan for solving 90% of "what is wrong in scouting". Now that I realize that the patrols will only be 300 feet apart I can see how all our problems will easily disappear.

 

If at all possible could we keep the history buffs 300 yards away still?

[Beavah]

We have 5th graders and high school seniors and no, they should not be doing the same things at troop meetings and on outings ...

 

Why would they be doin' the same things, acco?

 

Wouldn't the youngest boys be learnin', the middle boys be helping, and the older boys be leading and teaching?

 

Scoutin' doesn't have to be like school, where the change as you grow is that you get harder activities to do.

 

It can be like life, where the change as you grow is that you get more responsibility and recognition.

 

Beavah

 

[DanKroh]

"As an engineer, first of all I'm appalled that 300 feet got converted to 300 yards and then attributed to a Brit. B-P, in all probability would have stated 100 meters."

 

Acco, the UK didn't undergo metrication until the 1960's and 70's, as I recall. So B-P would definitely have been using English measurements like foot and yard in 1909.

[Eagle1982]

I know this sounds horrible, but if the Troop Committee wants to make using the patrol method a priority of the troop, and the committee chair is behind this, if the Scoutmaster does not agree and does not take the steps necessary, it may be time to gently move the SM to another position. How is this different than running a business, and having a company president not following the boards wishes?

 

So my question to the original post is, what does the board want?

[red feather]

As a SM of the troop that I serve and working now in my 3rd year of trying for a true Scout led troop, it is a curve that is almost always up.(been with the troop 15 years)

 

One of the things that I have seen in the difference of my views of scouting and those of 'new' adult leaders is not so much that they were not scouts as a youth but that they have not gone through Wood Badge. They have done the outdoor training and all the other preliiminary training that we can get them. I do not know the new syllabus for WB today as I went through it before the change. ( note to those who may be in charge: let us who have gone through the old syllabus take the new one to get updated).

 

Developing a culture of a boy lead (I prefer Scout led) troop takes time. 3 years into it and we are just now starting to get scouts who have known nothing else but Scout led.

 

A SM who has known nothing else but an adult led troop can be hard to transform to a different style but if enough Asms take the training and work (maybe in a stealth mode) it can be done. I am hoping and am starting to see Asms in the Scouts troop step up and take on adult leadership positions and function within the Scout led ideal. Not there yet but getting there.

 

Let the SM alone, he is doing the best he knows how. Work within the system get the training and work with the Scouts and empower them when you can. You night be surprised. Work with the NSP and iniate them into backpacking or whatever that may be unique to the troop and see what happens.

 

yis

red feather