How Do You Beat Down SM Defeatism re: Patrol Method??

[Joni4TA]

When you have a SM who doesn't believe the boys are capable of operating in Patrols...... he thinks the boys need him instead to run the show. How do you convince a SM to leave the boys be and let them work it out?

[Stosh]

One doesn't. Unfortunately there are those SM's out there that inspite of all that is promoted by BSA just can't 1) figure it out, or 2) trust the boys to do the job. Just remember that as long as the SM runs the show, the SM runs the show for both the boys and the other adult leaders. Couple that with a strong successful adult run activity program that keeps the boys active and there's no way anyone's going to break into that process with anything else.

 

[EagleBeaver]

After a direct discussion with the SM fails, asking your Unit Commissioner to review the troop's operations might be a good idea. I've asked our UC for advice many times and gotten steered the right way.

[AnneinMpls]

Experience is the biggest teacher - sometimes you need someone to come alongside and interpret the experience with them though.

The people that can best do this are respected peers, or folks with authority and friendliness. So, an encampment weekend would be a good time - an activity that requires the patrol to work together, an area where SM can observe - structure it maybe so that SMs have a specific observation to do. So getting roundtable commissioners and UCs to head this up would be a good thing. I'm betting yours is not the only SM who can benefit from some structured opportunity to improve patrol function. Even put it across as a "help us test out this pilot program for improving patrol leaders' skills" etc.

If you're the CC or a committee member, or an ASM, you are *not* in the right position to directly make this happen. Get the commissioners' attention

Structured observation cna be a real eye-opener for adults. Even just a list of the leadership skills, and space to write down examples of their use, or a play-by-play of how the patrol met and solved a problem. Then have an opp. where the SMs get together and share their observations. The SMs that are more skilled in working with patrols will communicate stuff, the less-skilled ones will maybe finally get something that's been a roadblock for awhile. Definitely do this with a whole mixed group of SMs because if there's any "sting" of SM Reform Skool or so forth, they are not going to be in the frame of mind for learning anything new!

If you are in any of the troop positions I listed above, make sure that there is a clear expectation that you are totally ok with any chaos that might result from letting the boys step up. Put it in writing - make up a troop committee cheer - whatever - but communicate it strongly and believably that y'all won't string him up if there are bobbles and mistakes along the way. The more criticism he's subjected to, the less he will be willing to put the boys themselves in the line of fire so to speak!

Anne in Mpls (UC wanna Be! Hint, hint...)

[Crew21_Adv]

Joni,

 

Greetings!

 

I tread a fine line with this topic. Here are my concerns regarding this topic.

 

The Patrol Method is the way to lead a troop. However, troops, patrols and Scouts need Adult Association.

 

Scouts can certainly succeed. They sometimes also fail, and I do believe that Scouts can learn from those experiences as well.

 

But I certainly do not believe they will learn anything from mistake after mistake after mistake.

 

I have asked older Scouts, Troop Guides and Instructors to attend PLC and plan the Troop meetings out in advance. When it is show time, more than half of the older boys are in the corner, chit-chatting, talking about girls, talking about video game cheat codes and music downloads.

 

A few older Scouts do help out the New Scout Patrol. But it usually takes a few ASMs, using Adult Association to encourage the older Scouts to engage in training Scout skills and advancement skills with the NSP.

 

When it is time for fun, heck yes, they work as a fine oiled machine. I have never seen a Patrol so disciplined. But when its time to learn Scouting skills, hygene, cooking, KP, merit badge performance, and etc; they sometimes need more adult association.

 

So finding an even keel between the youth led Patrol Leadership and the appropriate amount adult association is the key.

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Oak Tree]

I'm with jblake - it's not clear that you can change the SM. And you may be setting yourself up for frustration if you make it your main goal to do so. I think the best way to get a SM to make any incremental changes is for you to let him see that you are helpful, that you support him, that your ideas have merit, and that you're his friend. Maybe then you can work with him to jointly talk about the vision for the troop. But that's a very long term project.

[Bob White]

The Scoutmaster you speak of, you refer to him in an earlier post as yor son's father do you not?

 

 

[acco40]

This post reminds me of a JLT experience that I found enlightening. Both the older JLT training and the current TLT training have a portion where the boys play a game that exposes them to the "big boss" type of leadership vs. shared leadership. Funny thing happened when during their reflection the boys unanimously preferred the big boss style of leadership. They were so used to authoritative adults telling them what to do that they had a preference for that rather than one of their own (usually less experienced and capable than an adult) leading them. It is a culture change not only for the adults but for the youth too to be lead by their peers.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Stosh]

It's always easier to follow than it is to lead. Surely the boys would prefer sitting back and having someone else do all the leadership and they just jump in and grab the fun. For the most part only BSA actually expects and teaches leadership. Everything else is pretty much follow along.

 

Stosh

[Kudu]

99% of all that is wrong with the BSA can be solved by following Baden-Powell's dictum that Patrols never camp closer than 300 feet apart.

 

Kudu

 

So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit.

 

BP's Outlook October, 1909

 

[Bob White]

THANK GOD!

 

Finally! We now have a plan which according to Kudu will not just solve this problem but 99% of ALL the BSA's problem. Who knew that by merely camping patrols 300 yards apart we could stop people from taking legal action against a private organization for choosing their own values?

 

If Patrols camped 300 yards apart all leaders would attend training and retain and use the information they received.

 

If Patrols camped 300 yards apart volunteers would quit whining about the uniform and wear it completely and correctly.

 

If Patrols camped 300 yards apart no council would ever be without the funding it needed, and no camps would ever be sold.

 

If Patrols camped 300 yards apart then thousands of parks and campgrounds with campsites 300 yards apart would suddenly spring up all over the country. They would have to because there aren't any in my State that I know of.

 

If Patrols camped 300 yards apart then Webelos would not drop out prior to crossing over into Boy Scouts.

 

Think of all that the BSA could do if 99% of their problems were solved simply by having patrols camp 300 yards apart. I guess the 1% of problems left would just be dealing with folks who can't seem to stop living in the past by nearly a Century. And even that would be bearable if they had to always camp at least 300 yards away.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I have seen a lot of pictures of B-P walking around World Jamboree's and heard recordings of his voice at World Jamboree's. Are you telling me that Those World Jamboree's had patrol campsites 300 yards from each other? I know there were not as many people alive back then, but that would take alot of land by any standards.

[Kudu]

Well, yes:

 

If forced to actually use the Patrol Method, we would need to provide real training rather than business manager Wood Badge.

 

We would actually need those camps and the new outdoor Uniform.

 

If we kicked the Den Mommies and all of their indoor fellow-travelers out of Wood Badge, Scoutmasters could be trained to deliver a 300 foot program worthy of Cub Scouts sticking around for.

 

"300 yards"? The remaining 1% of the BSA problems can be attributed to the lack of reading comprehension among its true-believers.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Kudu]

OGE, the 300 foot rule is from Baden-Powell's essay "The Object of Camping."

 

World Jamborees are not camping.

 

Kudu

 

[Lisabob]

Yeah there Kudu, no need to be gentle with your comments, tell us how you really feel. (but c'mon, "den mommies??" gimme a break. And go run those den meetings yourself if you don't think we women are doing it the right way. But last I checked, without lots of involved moms, there wouldn't be very many packs in existence. Maybe think about that before you go insulting us. And FWIW I know a lot of excellent women leaders of troops and crews as well.)