TLT Evaluation

[Beavah]

 

Figured I'd move this over here so as not to hijack da other thread. After my critique of da TLT materials, BobWhite jumped in with plaudits. So, since some of yeh may be thinkin' about usin' the modules, a fair review is in order. In da interest of fair disclosure, I'd ask each reviewer to indicate da number of times you've actually used the materials with kids yourself.

 

For me, that's 5 times workin' with 4 different troops. Three times straight-up, 2 with pretty hefty supplementation.

 

BW described some features pretty well, eh?

 

The Scout learns about the Youth Lead concept of Troop and Patrol operations, The Troop organiization chart and the National Honor Patrol Award program, as well as a brief overview of his role as a leader... The Second module deals with 'How to BE a leader'. In it the Scout learns about the vision of the troop's success, how to teach using the EDGE model...In the third module the scout learns what is expected of him as a leader. meets with the adult who will be guiding him to discuss that scout's specific office and responsibilities .... And they take pre-printed job descriptions card and on the back write what their goals are for their term in office.

 

Oh, joy! A pre-printed job descriptions card!

 

Kudu's off for da week, but I'm sure he'd have pleasant words to say about such 7-minute-manager fad stuff, eh? Can yeh imagine anything more dull and incomprehensible to kids? And for that matter, to most of da adults bein' asked to teach it?

 

On the upside, the modules are deliberately designed to be less scripted than the old JLT stuff. It's deliberately pretty "thin." Some of the message is definitely that it's the SM's job to modify and adapt to make it work with his troop's program, because troop leader trainin' really is da SM's business, as Eagledad and BobWhite indicate.

 

I don't think it gets 'em there. Better to pull Greenbar Bill's stuff as a resource and get the kids out and doin' stuff and havin' fun. Along the way yeh can introduce EDGE or Hersey-Blanchard or whatever, if it seems to fit. Scoutin' should be a game.

 

Any other reviews?

 

B

 

[hotdesk]

I have noticed that the new TLT is less scripted and detailed than the old Jr. Leadership Training offered by National. I have noticed that it leaves the Scoutmaster a lot of room to add things to futher points.

 

HOWEVER, national should be offering a more laid out, scripted, and detailed training program. Their training programs should include videos, games, and training cells.

 

I know that the Scoutmaster is responsible for training, but whose to say that the Scoutmaster is good at training? The Scoutmaster may or may not have that is his "tool box".

 

This program is suppose to be boy lead. Nothing else gives middle schoolers the same chance to learn about leadership. IF a Scoutmaster IS NOT good at training we are not providing them with the necessary learning materials other than saying that mistakes will be made and that we will help you after the mistake is made.

 

 

[Bob White]

Who selected a Scoutmaster who was not good at teaching young people?

 

Is the solution to the program changing the training or changing the scoutmaster?

[LongHaul]

BW are you suggesting that if a CO does not have a Scoutmaster with a proven tack record of instructing youth in the leadership styles and methods associated with the BSA then they should fold the troop? What happens to CO's with limited leader pools?

LongHaul

[Bob White]

I am saying that if the CO selected a person who di not have the ability to teach others then they made a bad selection for scoutmaster and expecting the BSA to change their programs to accomodate poor leader selections is not a good solution.

 

There are two ways to change him. 1) change him mentally. Get him the training and development he needs to learn the skills of Scoutmastership or 2) change him physically, if he is unable or unwilling to develop the needed skills then accept that you made a poor choice and choose a person better qualified to replace him.

 

BW

 

PS

Kudu, I apologize for misspelling your name. It was unintentional.

[hotdesk]

Just because a Scoutmaster CANNOT train a scout leader does not mean that he can't teach or work with the boys.

 

There's a difference on teaching someone how to motivate others to do their job than being motivated to do yours.

 

A Scoutmaster should be respected by the scouts and willing to have fun with the scouts. He should put into practice BSA's methods and ideals and expect that his Assistants and that the Committee know what these methods and ideals are and that the troop is boy lead.

 

A Scoutmaster SHOULD be able to make camping enjoyable for the scouts in the troop. He should know who to inspire kids to be active, live with Scout Spirit, be involved citizens, and much more.

 

HOWEVER, Boy Scouts of America should have a uniformed method for training its youth leaders just as it does for its adult members. BSA should provide the Scoutmaster with detailed information just like it provides Council and District volunteers and Summer Camp staff members detailed information for training adult members.

 

Most training programs (even outside of BSA) have detailed training programs for its trainers to use. Your employer problem has a detailed training program for its Human Resource Department and Managers to use. Why should Boy Scout not have a more detailed training program for it's boy leaders?

 

Just because a Scoutmaster can't properly train a scout to be a leader doesn't mean that he can't inspire scouts to the above listed items.

[Bob White]

Hot Desk think about what you wrote. Would hire a math teacher how couldn't teach math?

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

I am saying that if the CO selected a person who di not have the ability to teach others then they made a bad selection for scoutmaster and expecting the BSA to change their programs to accomodate poor leader selections is not a good solution.

 

Would a CO select such a person? In the real world it probably isn't the CO who is doing the selecting.

 

A good teacher can teach almost anything. Maybe not as good as a teacher specifically trained on a particular subject, but well enough to make the concepts of the subject understandable & learnable to the students. A good teacher also knows how to motivate.

 

I'm with ya on the fad training Beav. I've been through a lot of fad training at my POE & most of it is just a rehash of other training with new buzz words.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

"Would a CO select such a person? In the real world it probably isn't the CO who is doing the selecting.

 

What you seem to miss is that SOMEBODY selected and approved the Scoutmaster, and if they picked someone who did not have the tools...well then they got what they deserved. Don't think the BSA should have to change the training just because units make poor choices. Instead the BSA puts out training to teach the COs how to make good choices. If the local units choose not to follow those practices either then again they will end up with the leaders and program they deserve.

 

Yes, a lot of training evolution is just minor changes over previous methods, but the same can be said of almost any product or service. The auto industry didn't go from the Model-T to the Corvette overnight, it was a series of small changes. Training is no different.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[LongHaul]

Comparing a Scoutmaster to a Math teacher is ludicrous. On one hand we have a volunteer normally coming from a revolving pool of parents of youth members and on the other hand we have a group of people that have chosen to pursue a profession based on personal motivation. These people have sought training is specific areas of interest and normally have taken into account the age of those they will instruct. Expecting a volunteer to pre qualify him/ her self so as to be ready to fill the position if asked is nonsense. This leaves training after accepting the position. Again Im part of our training team and am familiar with the current syllabi so I ask where can this training to be found? Its not in fast start, its not in NLE, its not in Scoutmaster specific, it is talked about and the trainee is told to do it but never taught to do it. We cover all the requirements and skills and how to teach them but never teaching leadership. WB covers team building and team consciousness but not teaching leadership particularly to pre teens.

LongHaul

 

[Eagledad]

>>What you seem to miss is that SOMEBODY selected and approved the Scoutmaster, and if they picked someone who did not have the tools..

[LongHaul]

I agree Eagledad, but unless some of these scouts are shown that they are taking the steps of Identifying and Interest, setting a goal, making a plan, carrying out the plan, evaluating the plan they seem to be ignorant of the process and therefore not as likely or able to repeat it. Today's students, be they 6 or 60, expect bullet point and quick easy to remember phrases. If they are not specifically told to watch for something they often miss it.

LongHaul

[Eagledad]

Well I guess we teach them the process. But what is more important is that they learn to do it in all their activities that require setting a goal as the first step. Even during a Scoutmaster conference, I ask the scout to set some kind of gaol for his next rank or MB or what ever is the subject and to right that gaol in his book. The idea is by writing and seeing it everytime he opens the book, he is reminded of that goal. Once complete, I even ask them to write the date completed to reinforce the idea of completion of the process.

 

But that is just one process of leadership development. What about MB cards. Honestly what a scout learns from the MB material wasn't as important to me as the skills of managing the badge. Our scouts had to find the counselor, fill out all the imformation for the card, get the SM to sign the card, then call up the counselor and set up a schedule for meetings. Again to adults that isn't that much, yet most boys had never had to do to initiate that many actions just to start an activity (or process). We found our scouts were proficient between three to five MBs. I also believe it reinforces the boy how to set a goal, and set a plan.

 

These are small things to learn, but big to scouts at first, but they catch on very quickly. All we adults have to do is remind them now and then, but not as much as you would think. To them it is just a process habit. But habits they carry the rest of their lives.

 

Good Reply.

 

Barry

[Beavah]

Today's students, be they 6 or 60, expect bullet point and quick easy to remember phrases. If they are not specifically told to watch for something they often miss it.

 

Yah, but that's because today's students are raised in a culture where da goal is passing a test, eh?

 

If the goal is passing a test (either in school or for a quick signoff), then yeh want da route that gets you there most efficiently. That's bullet points and quick, easy-to-remember phrases.

 

I think dat's part of what Eagledad is talkin' about, eh? The adults don't understand the goals or methods, and just fall back on what they know - lessons and tests and business theories. Even some of da adults writin' the materials.

 

Scoutin' should be a live-action video game. Yeh don't see lads lookin' for bullet points or quick, easy-to-remember phrases when playin' World of Warcraft, or soccer for that matter. They're fully engaged with the experience. They might share tips and techniques and tales with each other, but they're all about the challenge and puzzles and success. And as they have success, they build "levels".

 

There's no "Make 10th level First Month" courses and trainin'. That wouldn't be any fun. And there's no learnin' the theory of different spellcasting styles.

 

There's just play... but play that's engaging, that leads to ever-increasing skill as a measure of "success."

 

And if we listen as adults, there's not a kid who won't go on and on and on about his exploits and all da things he's learned about that electronic world, eh?

 

Anyway... gettin' back to da thread... Any other TLT reviews? A reminder to please let everyone know da number of times you've actually used the materials with kids yourself before yeh give a review.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Not everyone has the skills and characteristics to be an effective scout leader, just as not everyone has the skills and charcteristics to any job you can think of. That is why comanies list skills and abilities needed to do a job, and that is why theyare interviewed BEFORE they hired. When someone gets o the job and the employer realizes they are not effective at it, they normally either send him to training, or to unemployment. Otherwise the company suffers.

 

You can select and train the unit leaders and replace those who do not or cannot follow the program, or you can keep them and take the program you get. But itis unreasonable to expect the BSA to change theior program in order to accomodate a poor leader that you are unwilling to change.

 

You got this big barrel of apples. Common sense tells you not all are ripe. Do you just reach in and take whatever you get, or do you look at your choices first and make the decision to not choose a rotten one.

 

Most leaders today were recuited when someone at a scout meeting said..."we need somebody to volunteer do this job or else.....if you are willingto do it raise your hand, or see me after the meeting"

 

You need someone capable of doing the job not anybody who is willing to take the position. And that is usually what they get...anybody. Sometimes when they reach into the barrel like this they get a good one, but the odds are against them. Rather than taking any apple they should be choosing the right apple.

 

Getting back to the TLT, it is the best program I have seen so far. I have taught it, and I have taught others how to use it. It is better than the last one overall, although the last one was more fun, I think the lessons in this one have greater clarity and are easier for the scouts to understand. the last one was better than the version before that, and I am willing to bet that the next one will be an improvement over the one we have now.