Who is an SPL "in charge" of?

[Eagledad]

Another Happy Cold Oklahoma Scouting Day All

 

>>Before a troop grew to that size I would help organize a Venture Crew and train an Advisor, and we would graduate older scouts to the Crew to continue working toward Eagle if that was their goal, or follow special activity interests.

[Bob White]

Barry

 

I would, if needed, create a solution that controlled Troop size without turning away new scouts and still offering a quality scouting program that met the needs of the older scouts without taking away their ability to advance to Eagle if that was their wish.

 

No one would be forced join the Crew, but I am confident we could make it appealing enough that it would likely resolve the membership situation without negatively effecting the scout's involvement in scouting.

[Eagledad]

Yes I understand, but ideally what you are attempting to do is end your Troop program at age 14. And really it isnt 14, it is 13 because 14 is the age the scouts can join the Crew. You cant imagine my amazement with this suggestion. Even if an older scouts goal is to stay and practice leading, managing, planning, guiding, coaching and teaching scouts, your program really isnt conducive to it because in your mind, your oldest scouts are 13.

 

And you keep referring to the Eagle as if that is scoutings primary purpose to exist.

 

I have so many questions. And I cant put down the words that show my amazement (shock) to what you propose.

 

Please you don't need to defend yourself Bob, we can let this go here.

 

Barry

 

[evmori]

Actually, Bob, in your post the SM initiated the conversation. What I am saying is the SPL is the one who should be initiating the conversation if, in fact, this conversation needs to be done. Do you see the difference?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[BrentAllen]

So, jblake, when exactly does a PL earn the right not be second-guessed in your troop, to not have his power and authority taken away? Is there a special ceremony the troop performs to recognize their achieving this special level? It's obvious from your posts that NSPs haven't earned it, and it's impossible to tell how you would handle the 14-y/o patrol, since you didn't answer my question. All you said was you didn't think they could pull it off, which I find interesting when reading your post on the super-size troop. What if they did pull it off? What would you do? So, 2 questions:

 

1. What would you do if the 14 y/o patrol pulled off the trip (and don't dance around about some council req. for SM sigs - let's pretend you are in my council that doesn't require it)

 

2. When does a PL earn the right to over-ride the SM, SPL, and PLC?

[Bob White]

No Barry, we can't let it go there, because you made some very erroneos satements concerning my posts.

 

My goal in this case would be to have the charter organization expand their scouting program to allow them to serve more youth with quality scouting programs. If size in a the troop were aproblem one solution would be to expand the rpogram offer to allow the older scouts a program option that would not take from their scouting experience, and create room for growth at the other end of the scouting program.

 

Nothing is taken away from the scouts. Whether they are 14 and in the troop or 14 and in the Crew they have the same learning, leadership, and advancement opportunities as if they were in the troop.

 

As far as my comments on Eagle please go back and read my posts. I was very specific.

I merely pointed out that the Scouts who chose to join the Crew could still continue their Boy Scout advancement " If that was their goal". I was showing that the move to the crew would have no effect on the goals they may have set in the troop...IF they chose to go to the crew.

 

You have a habit of posting what I 'think'. I would prefer you post what you think, I will take care of posting what I think. That seems fair to me, how about you?

[Stosh]

>> So, jblake, when exactly does a PL earn the right not be second-guessed in your troop,

 

When he has completed his rank advancement, tried out some leadership skills that he has learned taking leadership training, and demonstrates a desire to work with his buddies and help them with their experience in the patrol and troop. In NSP, did he take a turn as APL? How did he do? Does he show an interest in helping others in his patrol? Does he work with them, stand off to the side, argue with the leadership? And does he express an interest in being a PL? If the other boys think he fulfills these "requirements", I suppose he's a good candidate for PL. I may "assign" him to the next year's NSP as PL to give him the chance to put his leadership into functionality. The TG and SPL are there to mentor and support him. If he's hesitant to accept the responsibility, I may put him in a more supportive role for a while until he's more confident in himself. If he's not a "people person", I might steer him towards QM or Scribe for his future POR's. If he proves himself to be a really good PL in the NSP, I might suggest for him a shot at DC.

 

>> to not have his power and authority taken away?

 

Never had the opportunity to do that. I find that boys have a tendency to come up to the expectations and challenges one places before them.

 

>> Is there a special ceremony the troop performs to recognize their achieving this special level?

 

Yep, they win an election for the position and I hand them the patch. Kinda simple, but the boys seem to think it's a pretty big deal.

 

>> It's obvious from your posts that NSPs haven't earned it,

 

What training have they had? What experiences do they have? Getting one's feet wet in the troop as a member of the NSP usually is pretty intense by itself. However, during that year, a lot of opportunity to lead and training do occur.

 

>>> and it's impossible to tell how you would handle the 14-y/o patrol, since you didn't answer my question.

 

Me too, I've never had to "handle" a 14 year-old that pulls off something as has been suggested. I answered the best I could but don't have any experience with such a problem. Maybe in my next 20 years of scouting it may come up.

 

>> All you said was you didn't think they could pull it off, which I find interesting when reading your post on the super-size troop.

 

Kids aren't that smart to be able to pull off the logistics of that large of a con-job on adults. A parent, another leader, or the SM himself will get wind of this long before it happens. As soon as it was announced in the PLC, and everyone thought it was great idea would have the skuttlebutt running through the troop like wild fire. If all the adults miss it, they have a lot more problems than a rogue patrol.

 

>> What if they did pull it off? What would you do?

 

Start leadership training all over again from square one. Obviously they missed something along the way.

 

>> So, 2 questions:

 

1. What would you do if the 14 y/o patrol pulled off the trip (and don't dance around about some council req. for SM sigs - let's pretend you are in my council that doesn't require it)

 

Let's pretend we deal with reality and the honor of our boys. If we do a respectable job of training them, we don't need to make up scenerios that don't deal with reality.

 

Seriously, the WORST disciplinary problem I have had in my crew in 9 years is: one boy said he had to leave early on Saturday night but he would come back and pick up his buddy Sunday to give him a ride home. He didn't. I gave the boy a ride home and had a discussion about keeping one's word the next time I saw the other boy. If that's the worst I ever deal with, I'm living a charmed life!

 

>> 2. When does a PL earn the right to over-ride the SM, SPL, and PLC?

 

About the same time a child has earned the right to over-ride their parent, teacher and pastor. If the PL isn't within the boundaries of civility and respect for other people, then it's time to take the boy back to Training 101. It's call common human decency and seems to fall somewhere in the cracks of the Scout Law and Oath. If you're a husband, when did you earn the right to over-ride She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed? :^)

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

jblake wrote ">> 2. When does a PL earn the right to over-ride the SM, SPL, and PLC?

About the same time a child has earned the right to over-ride their parent, teacher and pastor."

 

That sure appears to conflict with what you posted earlier.

 

"But no, troops do not trump patrols unless you are interested in driving out the older boys."

"If the SM and troop "trump" patrol decisions, then the patrols in reality don't have any deciding powers at all."

"The boys are responsbile, but they have no final authority? Requiring SM approval DOES indeed make it an adult-led unit."

[Eagledad]

>> No Barry, we can't let it go there,

[BrentAllen]

Barry,

I have no idea how you come up with your conclusions about what Bob posted. He never said he was developing the Venture Crew to take ALL the 14 y/o and older Scouts. Please tell me how YOU arrived at that conclusion.

[Bob White]

Barry

Not sure if you caught this but there is no crew. I offered an option on how a troop that had reached capacity could expand its program by adding a Venturing crew that would attract some of the scouts at the older end of the scale, so that it would open up troop capacity at the new scout end so that youth could be added rather than sent to away.

 

I would not expect EVERY 14-year and older scout to go to the Crew. But even if they did the roop would still have youth leadership as would the Venturing Crew. As long as the individual scout is getting what he needs and is enjoying the program, what difference does it make which program he is in?

 

I have had 13 year old SPL's who did just fine. I do not see a problem with this option. Why do you?

[Eamonn]

This thread has become a little long and I could well be missing some parts of it.

Anyway!!

Over the years I have worked with a lot of Scouts who have served as PL's and SPL's.

Each Scout was different.

Some were what might be called "Natural born leaders", some had no idea, some led by intimidation, some seemed to lead by committee. The list goes on.

While most were about 15 years old, we did have Lad's as young as 13 years old.

My role as a SM was to do my best to develop leadership skills.

As each Scout was an individual, no two Scouts had the same needs.

Looking back, I remember Andy. A super kid, in fact one of the most enthusiastic Scouts I ever met. His problem was that he was so keen to go out and get going that he didn't wait to find out what the task at hand was.

Steve on the other hand waited to find out exactly what the task at hand (or whatever) was took notes, asked questions, went back explained in great detail what was going on, kinda held back waiting for other to volunteer as to who was willing to do what.

My point is that we the adults need to tailor how we develop the leadership skills to the needs of the Scout.

When I do our Quarterdeck Training's, I use a lot of the material from the White Stag and some stuff that I have adapted from Wood Badge. Mainly dealing with the 11 Leadership Skills, in part because the Sea Scouts seem to see these as being more real than the Wood Badge material.

Eamonn.

[Eagledad]

>> Barry,

I have no idea how you come up with your conclusions about what Bob posted. He never said he was developing the Venture Crew to take ALL the 14 y/o and older Scouts. Please tell me how YOU arrived at that conclusion.

[Eagledad]

Happpy Friday aall

 

Sorry about the accidental unfinished post, fat fingers? Lets try it again.

 

>> Barry,

I have no idea how you come up with your conclusions about what Bob posted. He never said he was developing the Venture Crew to take ALL the 14 y/o and older Scouts. Please tell me how YOU arrived at that conclusion.

[Stosh]

jblake wrote ">> 2. When does a PL earn the right to over-ride the SM, SPL, and PLC?

About the same time a child has earned the right to over-ride their parent, teacher and pastor."

 

That sure appears to conflict with what you posted earlier.

 

"But no, troops do not trump patrols unless you are interested in driving out the older boys."

"If the SM and troop "trump" patrol decisions, then the patrols in reality don't have any deciding powers at all."

"The boys are responsbile, but they have no final authority? Requiring SM approval DOES indeed make it an adult-led unit."

 

I find no contradiction in the comments.

 

From what I see here is an example of apples and oranges being compared. One issue is the SM dictating and overturning the decision of the boys and the other issue is when it is right for a boy or group of boys to purposely challenge authority? I have somehow missed the point of how these two contradict each other. Sorry.

 

Stosh