Who is an SPL "in charge" of?

[John-in-KC]

Having spent my professional life in MBO, MBO, OMM, BKD, PIAPT

 

We are talking about boys. Boys can, do, and will require a certain level of adult leadership. I like using the 4 quadrant model for skills/processes mastery. Anyone in Quadrants 1 and 2 will be high direction, anyone in quadrant 3 will be low direction, and anyone in quadrant 4 will be able to approach nearly no direction.

 

Each time a Troop assembles a new leadership team, we will go through some phase of team-building dynamics again. I don't care if it's a Scout Troop, a Navy ship, an artillery battery, or a law firm... the person in charge's personality does and will influence the group dynamic... as will the personalities of the other folks on the leadership team.

 

Look, we're all adults here; we all work in the real world. We all have bosses. When we put on the Scout uniform, our job is to help the kids by determining what the right level of guidance is, and then helping the youth master the skills of planning/coordinating/implementing/following up such that we can dial that level of guidance ever closer to hands off.

 

My two cents.

[Eagledad]

Happy wintering all

 

Hi John,

 

I am excited to learn what MBO, MBO, OMM, BKD, PIAPT are.

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

Barry,

 

MBO: Management by objective

MBE: Management by exception

OMM: One Minute Management

BKD: Be-Know-Do

 

Can you guess PIAPT?

 

"... and a Partridge In A Pear Tree?"

 

Have a great MIZ-ZOU day, Barry! Unlike KU, OU beat the Tigers, fair and square.

 

John

 

[Eagledad]

Ahh thanks, I couldn't figure out what the PT was in the PIAPT. I should have guessed a long time ago that you are one of those, and those, and those.

 

By the way, I have a bumper sticker that says: "My two favorite teams are OSU and any team that plays OU.

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

Back when WWLS was a little station (80s) I used to listen to it. I remember the OU folks whining about the Aggies.

 

EagleSon came up with new words for Boomer Sooner, when the "Pride of Oklahoma" marching band plays it...

 

This is the ...eeee

Only FIGHT SONG

That we knooo.. hoooooo

How to Play....aaaaayyy!

[OldGreyEagle]

what does the Buckeyes have to do with this ?

[Beavah]

Yah, well. Da Buckeyes are nuthin' but a bunch of nuts, eh?

 

Not to interrupt da fun, but goin' back to BA's question:

 

Where did you come up with that list, and who put it in order? How did "Coaching" end up where it did?

 

Da list is from a combination of BSA materials, WB21C, TLT, and the PL and SPL handbooks, eh? The order is presented the same way in all of 'em, with "coaching" second on the list because it's an adult-directed style one step removed from telling (da follower is unskilled, but you have time to coach rather than just instruct). Just as jblake points out in detail, eh?

 

You'll also see 'em listed as a square with two axes, one for youth skill level, one for level of "urgency". It's called da Hersey-Blanchard leadership model in the real world when it's taught in stuff like J-in-KC's peartree partridge classes. Coaching would be the style to choose if the youth were unskilled in the task, but the task wasn't urgent so yeh had time to coach.

 

BobWhite is right in that there's no formal "hands off" style in the H-B model, which addresses situations which require some kind of leadership. I was simply tryin' to emphasize da BSA materials which under Delegation do say "get out of the way." In the case of a routine task, that means hands-off, eh? 'cause no external leadership is necessary when a skilled person takes on a routine task.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

The Buckeyes lost to LSU and are out of the picture.

 

B, thanks for the name of the model. I've used it for 30 years (it was introduced way back in introduction to leadership in 3d year ROTC), but I never bothered to learn the name of it.

 

The fourth quadrant of the model is low direction, low support. The subordinate is pretty fully trained and is performing. His leader really intervenes only with new tasks. Support (encouragement) is needed because men need encouragement, but even it can be dialed way, way back.

 

In a perfect world, you get to the point where General Schwarzkopf was when he commanded his infantry brigade at Fort Lewis: His division CG said "These are the things I expect your command to do well. Beyond that, you don't need me telling you how to do your job."

 

In simple English, the CG was.... HANDS OFF.

 

 

J.

[Stosh]

Ok, let's assume for a moment that all troops must be adult-lead because adult leadership is required at some time or another. That means the average scout answers to the SM,...and the SPL....and the PL....and everyone else with a POR. Hmmmm. Yep, that's a real-world example. Everyone's the boss and no one is left to do the work except some peon on the bottom of the heap. Get serious, I don't find this as a valid real-world example.

 

I also doubt very seriously if this is the model promoted by BSA, US Army, servant leadership style of business, or any other alphabet soup anyone can come up with.

 

I did a quick check with my council and it puts our largest Pack somewhere between 120-130 with a significant number of others over 100. Yet the largest Troop is only 50-60. I still stand on the proven principle of group dynamics that a single leader style (SM adult-led, "top down" leadership) can never handle a group as large as a small group autonomous style group (Cub dens or patrol-method Scouting "bottom up" leadership).

 

Are there exceptions to these "rules" of group dynamics? Yep, but I'm sure the BSA program is not designed for exceptions, it's designed for the most effective use of it's resources. And what better way to build leadership than actually give the boys the reins and let them run with it. They had 4 years of observation and maybe a DL opportunity to try it out. In scouting the boy builds on that observation and grows into a real leader.

 

Just like the post that asked the question if the Troop is going to go to one activity and a patrol wants to do something else, what should he do. NOTHING. The troop can do it's thingy and the patrol with no adult leadership and with the BSA blessings can go off and do their own activity. Why is the SM even involved in this process? It's because we as adults like to run the show and when we do, we cheat our boys out of an opportunity to learn leadership. Plain and simple. I'm looking forward to the day my scouts come up and say, "We're too bored to go out on the camporee for the umpteenth time. We're going geo-cacheing instead that weekend. The other PL's are doing a great job and they are in good hands." My first reaction would be how many ASM's can I convince to go to the camporee so I can go geo-cacheing with the older boys.

 

I'm willing to put it out there for discussion. How many adult leaders out there feel they can actually trust their leaders and if they can, why are they hovering over them watching their every move and critiquing their every decision? If a SM is doing it right, every boy that turns 18 years of age, should be able to take over the troop without missing a beat. If not, the SM is too busy doing what he's not supposed to be doing that he hasn't enough time to do what he should be doing.

 

Stosh

 

 

[BrentAllen]

jblake answered:

"Just like the post that asked the question if the Troop is going to go to one activity and a patrol wants to do something else, what should he do. NOTHING. The troop can do it's thingy and the patrol with no adult leadership and with the BSA blessings can go off and do their own activity. Why is the SM even involved in this process? It's because we as adults like to run the show and when we do, we cheat our boys out of an opportunity to learn leadership. Plain and simple. I'm looking forward to the day my scouts come up and say, "We're too bored to go out on the camporee for the umpteenth time. We're going geo-cacheing instead that weekend. The other PL's are doing a great job and they are in good hands." My first reaction would be how many ASM's can I convince to go to the camporee so I can go geo-cacheing with the older boys. "

 

Which just proved my point that he does not operate his troop under the BSA program. Yes, patrols can go do their own thing, as long as they follow two rules:

1. The SM approves the patrol activity

2. The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.

These are not Brent Allen's rules and program, these are the BSA's. If you don't believe me, turn to page 22 in your SM Handbook and read the quote I just typed.

 

Yes, the patrol is the most important unit in Scouting.... inside a Troop. Patrols function inside of, and as a part of a troop. Patrols cannot get chartered, only troops can. Patrol activities do not trump troop activities. A SM can give his blessing on a patrol activity, but it must be obtained. According to jblake, the SM wouldn't have any say in the matter. Requiring SM approval does not make a unit adult-led. Boy-run, boy-lead can certainly operate in the BSA program, where a troop is made up of strong patrols.

 

So, what do the SM and adults do, what are their responsibilities? To see that the Methods are used to meet the Aims and Mission. The BS Handbook, PL Handbook, and the SPL Handbook do not explain the Methods, Aims or Mission. The boys don't know what these are. Somehow, in jblake's troop, the boys are taking care of all this while the SM is off drinking coffee. More power to you!

 

The Patrol Method is just one of the eight Methods. Adult Association is just as important. The relationship between the SM and SPL should be one of open communication and mutual admiration. They should be working together as a team, with the SM mentoring and coaching the SPL.

 

jblake may run very good troops. I have no idea, since I have never seen them. I stand by my statement that he doesn't operate them under the BSA program.

[BrentAllen]

Beavah writes:

"Da list is from a combination of BSA materials, WB21C, TLT, and the PL and SPL handbooks, eh? The order is presented the same way in all of 'em, with "coaching" second on the list because it's an adult-directed style one step removed from telling (da follower is unskilled, but you have time to coach rather than just instruct)."

 

Could you be more specific? Maybe some page numbers? I'm having trouble locating those terms, and that order. When I look in the PL and SPL handbooks, I see EDGE. When I look in the WB syllabus, I see EDGE. When I turn to page 306 of the current WB syllabus, I read "The key concept that separates "coaching" from other leadership styles is letting go and enabling success." That sure sounds like Guiding to me. I would like to see the material that leads you to believe coaching is something different. I dare say your definition is not in sync with current BSA program materials. I'd also like to read more about the "persuasion/consensus" style.

[Beavah]

Yah, sure, BA. Easiest and fastest one for me to grab is da SPL Handbook, starting on page 86.

 

The BS Handbook, PL Handbook, and the SPL Handbook do not explain the Methods, Aims or Mission.

 

And for that, yeh should look at da SPL Handbook, where those things are explained startin' on page 26. They're also part of the SM's first discussion with new youth leader in the TLT syllabus.

 

B

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

Gotta love it. :^) Troop wants to go to activity A, one patrol wants to go to activity B. Troop insists that according to the rules SM trumps patrol decision, troop PLC trumps patrol decision and the patrol has to go to activity A. Now seriously, do you really think the boys of the patrol will be convinced that they have any say so in an organization that insists on doing things they don't really want to do? What's the sense of having a patrol, when they can only do what everyone else is doing. They'll vote with their feet. If the organization doesn't meet the interest, satisfaction and leadership needs of the older boys expecially, they're gone in a heartbeat and there's nothing but a set of quotes out of the SM handbook to soothe your disappointment.

 

The "rules" you're are referring to deal with such issues as safety, i.e. NSP want to go off by themselves and rock climb. Duh! SM trumps that idea in spades!!!! But if the only excuse he has is "Because I said so!" The boys won't buy it for a moment.

 

As for me not running under the BSA program, that of course is a matter of your interpretation of the rules as they differ from mine. Yes, I'll be the first to put the kabosh on the NBP doing rock climbing, but I'll be the last to force my boys out of the troop because I'm the boss and have organizational charts and rules to prove it.

 

BTW, next month I'll be tripling the size of my troop because I insist on boy-led, patrol-method scouting and that's what the parents want for their boys. Our troop has been invited to multiple Blue Golds, so that tripling number may be a conservative estimate. Not bad for a guy who isn't using the BSA program. :^)

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

I stand by my statement that he doesn't operate them under the BSA program.

 

Yah, yeh know. I really wonder why people get their jollies tellin' others that they're "not doing the BSA program". Gotta admit I find it odd and more than a bit presumptious, when the locals seem just fine with grantin' a BSA charter. And sometimes it's downright funny, eh, when the accuser doesn't seem to really understand the BSA program themselves!

 

But da most recent one is a doozy. A SM is not running the BSA program when he allows two events on the same weekend (a patrol trip and a troop camporee)?! I reckon that would kill off some fine Venture Patrols, and really alarm some large troops that run separate NSP events. I suppose a lad who has to put an Eagle project workday the same day as another troop event should also be overridden by the SM?

 

To explain the SM Handbook quote in jblake's context,

 

1. The scoutmaster clearly does approve of the patrol activity, and

 

2. The scoutmaster clearly feels it will not interfere with the troop activity. Not sure why it should, eh? Three other patrols attend the camporee, camp as patrols, participate in da camporee as patrols. How is bein' one patrol down interferin' I wonder?

 

And as jblake points out, those two rules apply only to patrol activities without adult supervision, eh? Da SM could send along an ASM and a parent on the patrol's outing and then it would just be a regular event.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

You bring up some great points...

 

>>Yes, the patrol is the most important unit in Scouting.... inside a Troop.

 

You had me up until you added a qualification saying that the patrol is the most important thing second to the troop. That's troop-method scouting and I find no evidence in the BSA program that supports that idea.

 

>>Patrols function inside of, and as a part of a troop. Patrols cannot get chartered, only troops can.

 

While this is true, it is important that the dynamics of a patrol require the support of resources that can be shared amongst other patrols in the area. Ideally a patrol according BP should be 8 boys. 2 leaders and 6 members. This combination represents the ideal size for a learning leader to handle. It's just the right size for the boys. Group dynamics indicate 12-15 others can be handled by an adult. However, not every patrol needs a QM, Scribe, Bugler, etc. but at one time they did. It would be expedient and a better use of resources if multiple patrols shared them. An outside person would be designated a coordinator of these support resources but would not be part of the patrol (i.e. the SPL and his staff)

 

>>Patrol activities do not trump troop activities.

 

If patrols really don't want to do what everyone else is doing, why should they be required to? It only makes sense that the NSP does a lot of requirement learning and the venture patrol does ... well, venture patrol interesting activities. To put everyone in the same pot and expect everyone to be doing the same thing will .... well, maybe the older boys will quit after going through the same requirements 5 years in a row. Yes, patrol activities designed for their members trumps troop activities. It's how BSA meets the needs of many different interests and ages. Of course if the TG asks one of the older boy patrols to lead a teaching demonstration every now and then to get to know some of the new boys, I'm sure they wouldn't mind. They might even find it fun. But no, troops do not trump patrols unless you are interested in driving out the older boys.

 

>>A SM can give his blessing on a patrol activity, but it must be obtained.

 

If there's a good working relationship between the SM and his leadership corps, it shouldn't be necessary. After all, if the patrol is so important why does it have to answer to so many other authorities in order to accomplish anything? Maybe it's because the SM doesn't trust the leadership and has to approve everything. If the SM and troop "trump" patrol decisions, then the patrols in reality don't have any deciding powers at all. Boys figure this one out very quickly.

 

>>According to jblake, the SM wouldn't have any say in the matter.

 

Ideally, you have that correct. Train the boys, observe their decision making skills/choices, and trust your boys to do what's important. That's what scouting is all about, independent, rational, moral choices. I expect that from my boys and because I trust them I don't have to insert myself into their processes.

 

>>Requiring SM approval does not make a unit adult-led.

 

The boys are responsbile, but they have no final authority? Requiring SM approval DOES indeed make it an adult-led unit.

 

>>Boy-run, boy-lead can certainly operate in the BSA program, where a troop is made up of strong patrols.

 

I agree. A SM that has trained his boys well, they demonstrate sound judgment and function well as a good role models for other boys, why in the world would he want to step in and usurp what these boys are doing? The most important goal is strong patrols!!!

 

Ideal scout program?

 

Take the Cub Scout model - multiple dens all operating autonomous from one another, coming together occasionally for such things as derbies, regattas, klondikes, day camps, etc. etc. etc. as a pack. Now, add some years of training, replace the adult den leaders with PL's, then replace the CM with an SPL, and the CC with SM and you have a BSA model that really works well. Cub packs of over 100 boys all over the place! If the adult-led cub program is gradually replaced with boy led scout program, nothing changes except those running the show...the BOYS!

 

Hmmm... I wonder how long a pack would continue to function if the CC and CM kept interfering in the activities of the dens?, telling them what they had to do and when to do it? Would your DL's quit? But of course, why would we expect scout PL's to be any different?

 

Boy-led, patrol-method is a mature version of adult-led, den-method. That's why cubbing is set up the way it is, it's the model the boys are seeking to imitate on their own. A troop of strong boy-led patrols can, just like cubbing, produce troops of 100+ boys on a regular basis. Cubbing = 4 years, 100 boys, 25/boys per year moving up to a Troop. Scouting = 7 years,... scouting should be producing troops of 150-175 boys. If we aren't what are we doing to drive away the boys? If the math's correct, we seem to be disappointing 100-125 boys along the way.....

 

I'm just trying everything I can to keep that from happening in my neck of the woods.

 

Stosh