Who is an SPL "in charge" of?

[Bob White]

I would wish him a "good night" and tell I would see him at breakfast.

 

Maybe its been a long day and he's forgot his plan. I know that prior to the PLC we worked out the rough agenda and that cabin clean-up is on it,m so I am not concerned yet.

 

In the morning after breakfast, I'd say "check your plan and let me know if you need any help, I will be in the adults cabin cleaning up" Then I would peek in after about 30 or 40 minutes and see what's happening. If they were busy cleaning I'd duck back out for awhile. If they were playing around and the tasks at hand were not done, I would find the SPL and ask "how goes the plan?" As long as his plan includes getting the work done in time to get home in time then I am still fine.

If he feels there is time for a game, as long as he has a plan, and has a buy-in from the patrol leaders to get the work done and stay on the schedule, then I'm fine, and so is he.

 

Why Ed...what would you do?

[evmori]

Well, if cabin clean-up was on the agenda, then I would expect the SPL to ensure it was completed. Like you Bob, I would check in & see if things were getting done. If things were not being completed in a timely fashion, I would pull the SPL aside & remind him of our pre-determined departure time & let him know he is responsible for the Scouts getting done what they need to get done before we have our Sunday service & pull out for home.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

The SPL in the troop I served would have been through the Troop Leadership Development Training At least once if not more by the time he became SPL, he would not need me to take him aside and tell him he is responsible. He already understand he is responsible, all I want to do is make sure that he still feels in control and still has a plan. When its time to go if the stove isn't done, while the scouts wait in the car to pull out the SPL and ASPL and I will go clean out the stove. We sill have a friendly evaluation of the last 60 minutes of the plan while we work, and next time...we will see if the stove gets cleaned out.

 

 

[Beavah]

For instance If I was a scoutmaster on a cabin campog trip I would probably spend a few minutes with the SPL the night before... "what are we doing afetr breakfast in the morning?" ..."What jobs need to get done before we can leave?"... "is there anything else you can think of?", let's take a look around the cabin and see what else we have used in here"...."what should we do with the wood stove?"... "how do you want to get that done?" ... "Will every one know how to do it?"

 

Yah, hmmm.... Dat's a lot of coachin' for a lad who has been through TLT several times, don't yeh think?

 

Mostly, after that trainin', I figure most SM's would assume da level of expertise the lads had was pretty high for this sort of low-level camp task, eh? And if da expertise is high, we adults should be shiftin' to delegation or consensus leadership styles. Coachin' would only be for an inexperienced SPL, remember? From WB21C?

 

"So, Samuel P. Leaderman, yeh got things wired for tomorrow? All da PLs know what's up? Great! Have a brownie!"

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Not at all Beavah, this could easily be his first time as SPL at a cabin campout and this is a task he knows how to do but was never in the position of being responsible for seeing it gets done. He has lots of time to remember and my coaching allows it to be his discovery and not my ordering.

 

Coaching is for anyone who needs it for that particular task in that particular situation.

 

Telling was not needed, persuading was not called for since it was not something he needed convincing to do, and delegating was not appropriate until after he shows that he has a thorough grasp of the task. So coaching in this instance is the right choice.

 

Do I "remember" Wood Badge for 21st Century???

Beavah ol buddy you have no idea :)

 

[Stosh]

If one has a boy at SPL level of responsibility, surely this person would have an idea of what goes into cleaning up camp/cabins after an outing. If you have a boy that is so inexperienced that he doesn't know the routine, he surely is not ready for SPL level responsibilities.

 

This appears to be a SM problem, not an SPL problem. What did the SM do to groom the boy and get him ready for the heavy duty support work of an SPL? Surely this boy had PL experience so he would know how to clean up a camp at the end of the event.

 

If the boy plays dumb and gives flippant answers to SM inquiries, then this is not a leadership problem in as much as symptomatic of other problems.

 

"Great examples, Bob! Instead of telling the SPL what to do, you let him tell you what we has going to do. But what if when you ask "what are we doing afetr breakfast in the morning?" the SPL answers "going home". So naturally you respond by saying "sure we are, but what needs to be done before we leave?" and the SPL responds "I guess we have to pack up." and you respond by asking "anything else?" and he says "no"."

 

This example by Ed indicates obvious adult directives and either rebellion or inexperience by the SPL. Being an SPL I would first guess rebellion. Maybe the SPL is giving a negative reaction to the insulting questions the SM is asking him. The SPL knows his responsibility and doesn't need an adult to look over his shoulder, questioning his every move as if he's new scout on his first outing. In this case, the SM got the answers he deserved.

 

Stosh

 

[Beavah]

 

Leadership by persuasion can work well when you are sure a troop member knows how to complete a task but he has never done it without assistance. Offer lots of support and encourage the scout to try it on his own. He may be fearful of failure or may not trust his own skill and knowledge. By encouraging him, you can persuade him to overcome his doubts and achieve more than he would otherwise have thought possible.

 

That's good advice from da BSA literature, eh? If yeh have an SPL who after several rounds of TLT still might be uncomfortable takin' on that role for the first time, then I reckon persuasion might be da proper style to choose.

 

Don't coach him on stuff he already knows. Express your confidence in him and encourage him!

 

Of course, sometimes a lad might really need coaching, eh? Yeh gotta meet each kid where he's at. But I'd encourage the unit leader who was experiencin' that to reflect on what he/she might do to make TLT more effective. Or perhaps go back and look at how the troop is teachin' basic camp skills for T-2-1 so that the lads had more confidence in their skills, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

There's the problem Beavah, You have a handbook that has a Rank requirement on how to clean a cabin and no one else does.

 

Do they grow a pretty good crop of Nits in your neck of the woods, cuz yer pikin' a pretty good crop here, eh. The situation I responded to was a small example of a common camp situation, and as I am sure you know the point was simply to show you can talk to a scout and get things done by asking nonabrasive questions rather than ordering kids around.

 

And to show that you work through the organization chart. I spoke to the Senior patrol Leader, he talks to the PLs and a PL offers to have his patrol or someone in it do the job.

 

The reason is if I speak to the SPL that way, he will learn to talk to the PLs that way and they will learn to talk to the scouts in the patrol that way.

 

But if you take the easy short cut and just tell a scout to 'git er done' then nobody learns anything, don'tcha know.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

And the SPL in my example had completed Troop Leadership Development Training, too, which is why I would leave him to his own devises. Oh and I mis-stated when I posted I would tell him he is responsible. I meant to post remind him he is responsible.

 

If it's time to leave & the stoves still are in need of cleaning, I would hope the SPL has the Scouts who were assigned to clean the stoves clean them & the SPL would be sitting in the car waiting. Or I would be OK with the SPL giving the Scouts assigned to clean the stove the stoves to take home & clean & return the next Troop meeting.

 

A SPL who has been on campouts AND completed Troop Leadership Development Training should know the routine even if this is his 1st campout as SPL. He has seen this done by other SPL's & the training reinforced it.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Please, the message is not about how to clean a cabin, it is about how to lead without always "telling", and how to not create a leadership environment based on "telling".

 

Look at how much more polite the SPL was when I talked to him as opposed when you talked to him. I would guess that you wrote based on your experience just as I wrote based on mine.

 

In my case the SPL was courteous because I was courteous to him.

 

Scouts tend to reflect the leadership styles they see modeled by their leaders.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

No telling in my example and I don't think anyone is discussing the hows of clean-up.

 

You can't determine if someone is "polite" in any of these examples! They are your words & my words not the SPL's words! At least my post was.

 

Could be rebellion jrblake. But if it is, that would indicate a lack of maturity to me.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Stosh]

:^) Rebellion? Immaturity? I don't think so. I have repeatedly told my boys that until they know they're right and feel comfortable with standing toe-to-toe with adults as their peers they have achieved the beginning of leadership.

 

If a patrol was assigned to clean up the kitchen and the SPL is sitting in the car waiting to go and the patrol is not done in the kitchen the SPL is not showing leadership! Where's the lead by example? Where is he supporting the PL in getting his responsibilities done? The first and only question the SPL should have asked the PL of that patrol was, "What do you think we need to do to help the boys knock out this kitchen cleaning?" Here the SPL is leading the PL and encouraging him to lead his boys. This is leadership in action, not the SPL sitting on his butt in a car while someone else does the work. That leadership would mean the patrol should join him in the car and wait for the adults to clean up the kitchen.

 

Rebellion is normal and natural for boys of this age. They know what's going on, they know who's in charge, they know hypocracy when they see it. They are far more savvy to the situation than you think they are. If they rebel then ask them! Find out what's going on and help HIM with achieving what he needs to achieve. That's coaching/counseling/mentoring.

 

There is no polite way to lead by directives. Bullying, "because I said so", and other forms of coersion can never be candied up enough to swallow no matter how polite the dictator might be.

 

"What can I do to help you do your job?" is the only true servant leadership option and that doesn't have to be sugar coated or made polite. It offers leadership in it's purest form. That is what lead by example means and the first people that should be exemplifying this is the adults. I have never heard a scout rebel against that question...ever!

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Do they grow a pretty good crop of Nits in your neck of the woods, cuz yer pikin' a pretty good crop here, eh. The situation I responded to was a small example of a common camp situation, and as I am sure you know the point was simply to show you can talk to a scout and get things done by asking nonabrasive questions rather than ordering kids around.

 

Nah, no nitpickin', mate. Just friendly observations on how to think about da materials so that we all can do a better job with kids, eh? I reckon' jblake's got a good point. Any SPL I've ever had or seen would have found those questions pretty abrasive. Better to model other techniques in that situation, IMO. Or if such a high level of coachin' is necessary, that reflects some weakness in TLT or in basic skills development that should be addressed by da program. Especially since yeh said the SPL had likely been through multiple TLT's and such.

 

Maybe, as you suggest, too much emphasis is bein' placed on teaching only the advancement requirements in a Handbook, eh? Perhaps with more focus on da other methods of Scouting kids will pick up on simple camp tasks like cabin cleaning.

 

Just a thought.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

You missed jblakes boat there Beavah, he did not say that that my questions were abrasive in fact he complimented them. You might read his posts again. He and I are both advocating talking with the scout and not ordering him around. I never told the scout what to do, I asked him what he thought he should do, and what his plan was, and I supported his decisions.

 

When he needed guiding I guided without telling, I was willing to accept his answers and when needed I went with him and helped him with the task. When he has a patrol leader who needs help I would expect him to coach him. If he discovers the PL does not know how to do the job, I would anticipate the SPL working next to him as I did in the example, and as Jblake also supported.

 

Are there levels in the leadership style of coaching?

 

As far as training to clean a cabin, you do get that this was a fictional situation simply used as a vehicle to show the difference in leadership styles. There really isn't a cabin with a dirty stove. Let's not throw away the First Class Emphsis program or the Styles of Leadership over your confusion about a non-existent SPL in an invisible cabin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Well if the cleaning the cabin was a fictional situation, how does one explain

 

Look at how much more polite the SPL was when I talked to him as opposed when you talked to him. I would guess that you wrote based on your experience just as I wrote based on mine.

 

In my case the SPL was courteous because I was courteous to him.

 

Guess this isn't a fictional situation.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10