Who is an SPL "in charge" of?

[evmori]

I would agree with Eamonn regarding "dirty pool" and John-in-KC regarding the answer to the question.

 

Calico,

You are correct as usual. The JASM reports directly to the SM.

 

Got a question of my own - what's the point here?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Beavah]

Got a question of my own - what's the point here?

 

Yah, gotta agree with Ed. Can't see much of a point. Though I'm guessing that it's

 

It seemed a worthwhile topic. When I teach knots and lashings I first try and find out what knots the participants already know. So sometimes when I discuss a topic it helps me to find out what participants already know.

 

which probably translates to "you all are a bunch of kids and I'm testing you so that then I can teach you ignorant fellows the right way."

 

But I may be mistaken . Online accents are sometimes hard to understand, eh?

 

Beavah

[Eamonn]

OK Bobwhite,I'll play!!

To save me from opening and closing the page!!

Your example was:

"How often have you heard the complaint from scouts and scoutmasters alike that "the scouts won't do what the _______(fill in the leadership title of choice) tells them to"

 

Would you agree that strongly suggests a leadership environment where there are people "in charge" of others? "

 

Yes I agree.

There are times when this style of leadership "Telling" is necessary and needed. I'm thinking of situations where safety might be involved or an issue. "Stop hitting him with that big stick!!" (Feel free to put in your own stupid situation!!)

Most people especially boys of Scout and Sea Scout age, do not like being told what to do or being ordered to do something.

We as youth leaders spend a fair amount of time talking about and trying to master leadership.

Going back to your example:

""the scouts won't do what the _______(fill in the leadership title of choice) tells them to"

 

Maybe exploring why? The Scouts are not doing what who-ever is telling them to do is worth the time.

 

Did they understand what was asked?

Did the leader take the time to make sure that they did understand?

Were the instructions clear?

Did the leader use good communication skills?

Did he listen for any feed back?

Do the Scouts know how to do what they have been asked?

Do they have the tools (resources) to get the job done? If not, do they know where to go to find the resources needed?

Has the person doing the asking earned the respect of the Scouts? Is he a good example? Does he follow instructions? Does he have a "Do your Best" attitude? (Walk the walk or just talk the talk?)

Do the Scouts feel that they have some kind of ownership in what is going on? Have they been asked? Did they receive the facts? Were their opinions respected?

Is there any kind of a history about what is being asked? What happened last time we tried this? What worked and what didn't? If it didn't? Is there another way that might be better?

Was there a plan in place,was it reviewed with the Scouts?

Was there a plan "B"? Were alternatives considered? Did everyone know what they were expected to do and when?

The person doing the asking. Did he bark out orders? Or was he,Observing,Making instructions fit the situation,Helping where necessary,Examining the completed work,Reacting to the quality of the work?

Are the Scouts aware of the consequences or rewards that might be gained from getting the job done and on time.

"Hey guys if we get the trailer unloaded quickly and the tents up, we can still make it to the Trading post!"

Very much in line with "Do what you gotta do, so you can do what you wanter do!"

Talk about dirty pool!! Yes this is of course the old Leadership Skills.

Ea

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Here is my point.

There is a thread about a young SPL and other junior leaders not being listened to by the scouts. The overwhelming advice is that if a scout doesn't do what he is 'told to do' punish him.

 

I am trying to figure out why junior leaders are running around telling people what to do (especially the SPL) and where that kind of behavior comes from.

 

It isn't hard to figure out. Young people learning leadership skills copy what the adult leaders do with them.

 

If the adult leaders, as modeled in the thread, have a philosopy of 'do what you are told or there will be "consequenses" ' then that is how a young leader will believe you should lead people.

 

If a patrol leader is always "telling" patrol members what to do its probably because that is how he is treated by the SPL, and the SPL is doing it because the SM does it. So if you want to change the leadership style in the junior leader so they are an effective leader, who needs to change first?

 

Gosh, I wish I could have a cool accent when I typed

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, BW, that's an ancient thread that yeh resurrected, that was tied to some other stuff, eh? Or it might have been Maldanorian, he seems to be Lazarus of the threads this week.

 

Rather than create this somewhat tangential side thread, if the topic comes up again, just share your perspective and advice along with the rest of us, eh? I'm sure it would be welcome. We all make guesses about what the Original Poster's "real" circumstances are based on very limited turns of phrase and a lot of readin' between the lines. Lots of times we have to ask for more information. Lots of times havin' different folks answer allows one of us to guess right and be helpful to the questioner.

 

And dat's the only "right" answer, eh? Da one that is helpful to the original questioner.

 

Beavah

 

P.S. Yeh need to move a few hundred miles farther north from where you're at in order to acquire a charming, furry accent, eh?

 

 

[Bob White]

While it may be 90 days old unless you believe that the posters have since changed their leadership philosophies it would still seem a valid topic for discussion should anyone else choose to participate.

[FScouter]

We have 10,000+ forum members here so while helping one specific member with a unique set is circumstances is all well and good, the rest of us can benefit from a wider discussion of the topic. And the one specific member can benefit too if he's interested in a bigger picture.

[Stosh]

I think the subject is always a valid topic to discuss. I have read through the leadership development literature of the BSA program and somehow always come to a different conclusion than what is actually being practiced many times and the question asked is exactly that point.

 

Who is the SPL "in charge" of? Nobody, unless you are running an adult-led or boy-led dictatorship.

 

I think the question should be, WHO IS THE SPL RESPONSIBLE FOR? This changes the whole emphasis from a leadership style of tyranical direction givers to leaders who seek to support and mentor others. I think the BSA calls it "servant leadership" and is the only true leadership there is. I'm glad BSA promotes it even if it isn't often applied.

 

If we're talking leadership and teamwork here, one must realize that each scout is part of a group and he is responsible to that group and how he determines his interaction with the group determines his leadership style.

 

When the PL realizes he will be a success only if his patrol is successful then will he fully understand that servant leadership is all about. The SPL will only be successsful if the PL's are supported and assisted and helped to be successful. Only when the SM realizes that he must do all he/she can to guide, mentor and support the PLC officers to be successful, will he/she him/herself be successful. True leadership is generated at the bottom and progresses upward, not sitting at the top directing, mandating and coercing downward.

 

We teach and often demonstrate the bully, intimidating types of direction that we then call leadership, but it produces nothing of any value including resentful followers. But the leader who tries everything within his power to improve and give value to the others will he himself reap the benefits of loyal "followers" that will do anything for their leader. It's call teamwork and the leader that leads by serving will always be successful.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Bob White]

And yet... how often have you heard an SPL tell a patrol member what to do? Is the SPL in charge of each patrol? If the Scoutmaster "tells" the SPL what to do do you think the SPL will ask or tell the PL what to do?

 

There are two times when telling someone what to do is appropriate. Yet it appears to be the only style of leadership modeled in many troops.

 

I can tell you from many Wood Badge experiences that going into the start of the week, few Boy Scout Leaders know any other leadership style. The minute the first Patrol leader is designated the first thing they do is start telling others in the patrol what to do.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Styles of leadership vary from person to person. All styles can be appropriate all the time. A good leader knows when to use a specific style to get the best results. If we let a book tell us when a leadership style is appropriate we miss the chance to evaluate the situation & use the proper style of leadership.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Stosh]

One has to be careful between the definition and leadership style and leadership methods. Basically everyone adopts a particular style and then uses various methods that reflect that style in different situations.

 

A servant leadership style will not use certain methods except maybe in an emergency situation, or a situation where critical time is of the utmost importance.

 

A directive leadership style will not use certain methods except to manipulate and coerce an outcome of their choice.

 

It's kind of like having a toolbox of different methods and the owner will use certain tools more than others, but they're all available if needed.

 

Styles on the other hand are based on the prime core attitude of the leader and that will not change depending on the situation.

 

As an example, on and outing a few years back, I commented to one boy that the fireplace in the cabin we were staying needed to be cleaned out and swept. I didn't tell him he had to do it, I just made an observation and it was up to him to decide the next step. He looked at me and asked why I was always talking to him when the biggest, dirtiest jobs needed to get done. I said it was an important job too, and I reserve them for my best and most reliable scouts to take care of because I know it will be done, done quickly, and done correctly.

 

He was a patrol leader at the time, now he's part of the honors patrol as TG and uses the same leadership style and methods with the new scouts. To date I have never seen him command anyone to do anything, and yet he's one of the most popular and effective boys in the troop. If the day ever comes when he has to directly mandate that something be done, i.e. safety infraction, the boys will comply because they trust his leadership/caring style and therefore don't question his methods.

 

Style vs. methods There is a big difference.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

In the BSA we identify and teach 4 distinct "styles" of leadership that can be used under difffering circumstances depending on the task and the experience of the person(s) you are leading. These 4 "styles" ar part of the Leadership Develepment "Method" of the Boy Scout Program.

 

Besides the "styles of leadership" a part of the Leadership Development Method is that the adults model these styles and teach them to the youth leaders for them to emulate.

 

For instance If I was a scoutmaster on a cabin campog trip I would probably spend a few minutes with the SPL the night before we leave and just say "what are we doing afetr breakfast in the morning?" (even though I know the answer). He would likely say "the only thing left to do is clean up and go". To that I would ask. "What jobs need to get done before we can leave?"

 

Let's say the SPL responds, "gather our personal gear and sweep the floors." I would say, "is there anything else you can think of?", let's take a look around the cabin and see what else we have used in here". So the SPL says, "I think that's it.", I ask "what should we do with the wood stove?" the SPL says "oh that's right, it needs to have the coals shoveled out and the wood supply restocked."

 

I ask, "how do you want to get that done?" and the SPL says, "I'll talk to the Patrol Leaders and get a volunteer". "Will every one know how to do it?" I ask. I can be available to teach them, if they haven't done it before."

 

"Thanks" say I, "it sounds like you have it all under control, Nice Job!"

 

I could have waited until morning and just pointed to the stove and said "Billy, while your standing there, grab the shovel and can and clean out that stove".

 

One style is telling, the other uses coaching and delegating, but only the second one develops leadership, the other just bosses people around.

 

[Stosh]

I guess I'm not that keen on that much pre-directives to the boys, not even the SPL. Too often these directives can be seen as adult-led and I'm constantly working to make it boy-led.

 

Normally I let the boys work through the process of "cleaning the cabin". Then when there's about 75% done, I begin talking with the "leadership" so as to have them review the process and identify correction in the process as it is occuring. It would be at this point that if the fireplace wasn't clean I would ask a few questions about it to the leadership. Maybe the boys didn't know that that was a task that needed to be done.

 

This appoach always gives the boys a chance to make decisions based on what they are observing/doing and then with adult support, evaluate them afterwards. This allows them to make leadership decisions on their own of the activity rather than on previous "recommendations", "mentoring", "delegating" or "guiding" on the part of adult-led dynamics.

 

If I am making pre-decisions, giving guidance, determining outcomes or prodding along the way, then I AM THE LEADER and am taking a leadership opportunity away from the boys. Let the boys lead, but be ready with the safety net to help them out when they make the wrong choices. The boys will learn far more from their mistakes than they do from their successes.

 

One of the most important parts of a SM's responsibilities is to trust the leadership of the boys. No, you do not have to hover over everything to make sure the boys are successful in their activities. By the time the PL is taking his patrol out on an outing, he should be capable, experienced enough to do an adequate job. Trust him.

 

Remember, failure is an event, not a person. It's ok to make mistakes. Always allow your boys an opportunity to fail. If they succeed knowing they could fail is far more exciting than succeeding knowing some adult would not allow them to fail.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

As far as letting scouts fail, they are so many personal versions of what that means.

 

Let's look at the Scoutmaster training video when the troop had a paper drive that was a bust. The problem was that the SPL did't give a reminder phone call to the patrol leaders.

 

If the SPL knew he should make those calls and didn't do it, then I would be willing to let the event fail and use it as a teaching tool. But if the SPL was never trained to make that contact, Iand I allow it to fail then the event failed because I FAILED to teach the scout good communicating skills and I did't use good ones either. So for me to allow that event fail is not a lesson for the scout and could be harmful to his leadership position, not to mention the only thing it would teach him is that I was not a good role model.

 

So when you are willing to let failure happen, make sure you know for sure just who is responsible for the failure, and where exactly they failed.

 

When to lead

The Scoutmaster Job Specific Training also makes another excellent point on the difference between adult and youth leadership. The time for adults to lead is before and after the activity, not during. During the activity the youth lead, we stand back and observe and evaluate. Before the activity we do a check to make sure the youth leadership is prepared, and after we help them with a self-evaluation of how it went. This is as true with a troop meeting or PLC as it is with cleaning a cabin. Something to consider.

[evmori]

Great examples, Bob! Instead of telling the SPL what to do, you let him tell you what we has going to do. But what if when you ask "what are we doing afetr breakfast in the morning?" the SPL answers "going home". So naturally you respond by saying "sure we are, but what needs to be done before we leave?" and the SPL responds "I guess we have to pack up." and you respond by asking "anything else?" and he says "no".

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)