Who is an SPL "in charge" of?

[Bob White]

Strong, independent Patrols coming together on occasions to share their abilities and to cooperate as a troop? Who woulda thunk?

 

If I only have 7 out of 8 dens show up do I still have a pack? If I only have 4 dens show up is it a pack. Sure it is, it's just not the entire pack.

 

If only 4 out of 5 Patrols show up is it a Troop Sure it is. What if only two show up is it still a troop? Sure it is.

 

Why because the Patrol is the the core of Scouting. A troop is a gathering of Patrols.

 

Who is the SPL in charge of? No one. The SPL is the coordinator of a the troop, a gathering of patrols. He is not "in Charge" of the patrol, Patrols elected a Patrol Leader to represent and guide them.

 

He is not there to "tell them" what to do , he is there to help guide and support their plan.

 

The handbook says that a patrol activity should not interfere with a troop activity. That doesn't mean they can't happen at the same time, Just that a plan should be reached to so that the troop activity does not suffer from the patrol activity and if it does then 'the good of the many outweigh the good of the few'. (By the way if you are looking for movies to teach leadership the Startrek series is a fun way to teach leadership skills.)

 

But 100 pts for jBlake47 for an excellent post!

BW

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

"Yah, sure, BA. Easiest and fastest one for me to grab is da SPL Handbook, starting on page 86." (BTW, your accent is starting to sound like Mr. Crabs on Spongebob) :-)

 

Well, gee, there Beaver, your SPL HB must be much different from mine, because I can't find anything you mentioned on page 86. I see "Have a Good Attitude" and "Act With Maturity" and "Be Organized"

 

"And for that, yeh should look at da SPL Handbook, where those things are explained startin' on page 26. They're also part of the SM's first discussion with new youth leader in the TLT syllabus."

Again, you must have a much different book than mine. I see Methods described, but no Mission or Aims. I do see on page 30 the Note on Patrol Outdoor Activities that I quoted. Let me guess - yours doesn't have that, right?

TLT? Nope, not in there either.

 

I have yet to see ""persuasion/consensus".

 

"A SM is not running the BSA program when he allows two events on the same weekend (a patrol trip and a troop camporee)?!"

 

Maybe you should read my post more carefully. I didn't say it couldn't be done - I said it had to have SM approval, and it couldn't interefer with a troop activity. Interefere would mean the SM needs them at the campout, and they decide they want to go elsewhere. If they aren't needed at the campout, the SM can give his blessing and off they go.

 

According to jblake, the PL trumps the SPL and SM. "...what should he (SM) do. NOTHING." "Why is the SM even involved in this process?" I don't see how that can be interpreted to mean the SM gave his blessing, or it even mattered if the PL trip would interefere with the troop's. He's saying the SM shouldn't even have a say in it!! And that CLEARLY is NOT the BSA program. The BSA program does not allow the PL to trump the SPL and SM. That is my point - get it?? You answer the question for me Beaver, does the PL trump the SM?

 

He can run his troop however he wants. I'm not trying to get him to change the way he runs his troop. I wish him much success with his new troop and his soon-to-be new Scouts. Just don't claim it is the BSA way, and the rest of us are wrong, running adult-led troops.

[BrentAllen]

jblake, what if I wrote that patrols are the building blocks of a troop, instead of "the patrol is the most important unit in Scouting.... inside a Troop." Would you still consider that to be a troop-led statement as well? To me, those statements mean the same thing.

[Beavah]

Well, gee, there Beaver, your SPL HB must be much different from mine, because I can't find anything you mentioned on page 86. I see "Have a Good Attitude" and "Act With Maturity" and "Be Organized"

 

Yah, there are different print runs, eh. Turn da page. "Matching Leadership Styles to Leadership Needs" is the header. Goes on for a bunch of pages followed by scenarios. Persuasion/consensus is called "The Persuading Style of Leadership." If we're talkin' about decision-making it's "consensus."

 

Glad you found the section on the Methods, though, that yeh hadn't seen before. Now for aims, check out page 4 of the TLT syllabus, where it instructs the SM to:

 

guide (the SPL) toward understanding Scouting's role in developing personal growth - the values of citizenship, character, ideals, and overall fitness. As the two of you discuss this, help him understand that he is an important influence who can cause such growth to take place, and that it is a major part of his role as senior patrol leader...

 

Sure seems like da BSA does make the kids aware and part of the Aims & Methods, eh? And wants us to guide our youth leaders to take responsibility for even that most important part of our program.

 

Interefere would mean the SM needs them at the campout

 

Yah, it's funny, eh? Sometimes the wordin' or the way we think locks us into notions and we don't realize we're bein' locked in. I wonder why the Scoutmaster needs them at a campout?? If the patrols are functioning, and the Patrol Leaders are well trained, it's their game, not the SM's. And if the campout is some kind of specialty campout where extra expertise is needed, then it would be their brother patrol leaders in the PLC who would ask them to come and help out because they were needed. Just a different way of thinkin' and actin'.

 

Just don't claim it is the BSA way, and the rest of us are wrong, running adult-led troops.

 

Ah, I think I get it.

 

So let me take a step back.

 

I think there are multiple "BSA ways". I think that because I see 'em every week. No two troops are alike, because no set of adults or kids are alike. There's not a "right" way, there are multiple right ways. And even when each of us is doin' a great job, there are ways to improve. When we come near nirvana, and have that youth-leadership mojo workin' full tilt, they have the nerve to graduate and leave us with a bunch of clueless youngsters again!

 

That's why I share your dislike of bein' judgmental of fellow volunteers, or claimin' that one person's way is the only acceptable "BSA program." Inevitably when yeh look closely at even those units, they aren't runnin' a "pure" BSA program either, 'cause really there's no such thing. BobWhite harps about program, but he makes tweaks and adjustments and doesn't always hit perfect stride. I certainly am in da same boat, eh? I imagine jblake is too. Hopefully we're all constantly lookin' for new ideas, and constantly watchin' our kids lookin' to see whether we're reachin' the outcomes we want with each and every one of 'em. And if not, changin' what we're doing to get better.

 

I only get book-quotey and and a bit chidin' with those who've locked into "one and only one right way", eh? Usually a fairly adult-driven one, though they don't often recognize it . Those folks have stopped learnin' and growin', and are apt to lead others astray.

 

So I don't reckon anybody's really sayin' you or anybody else is doing it wrong. Leastways, I'm not. Internet friends and BSA materials and such are just an invitation to think and reflect, and perhaps pick up an idea here or there that maybe, just maybe, will help each of us do it better.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

BW, you have it correct! Welcome to the world of 100+ member troops. But with that exciting challenge, be warned of the pitfalls such as having to instruct 15-20 boys just to be qualified PL's, and add to that the Troop corps of officers needed to support that large number of patrols. Heavens, these boys will have to start operating as leaders on an adult level well before they turn 18! They might even be expected to start learning leadership right from the git-go! At least 2 ASPL's each with 8 PL's to support. TG? at least one for every NSP. With approx 25 new Webelos crossovers every year from a Pack of 100+ members, that means 3 NSP's of 8 boys each needing a solid corps of scout Instructors big time too! The SM that tackles this one will need a serious corps of adult leaders to assist teaching those troop leaders big time. They may have to spend all their time training leadership and won't be able to interfere with what the boys are doing! Will the SM have time for making sure the patrol duty rosters are all filled out or whether or not all 20 patrols will be attending camp this summer? Nope, only 15 will, the other five of older scouts will be doing a Boundary Water Canoe Trip instead. The SM is ticked off because he can't make it with the older boys, but it isn't a problem, he's working his schedule to attend Philmon the following summer that's already well into the planning stage organized by those helping the patrols planning that activity. Routine paperwork of attendence, advancement, etc. will need to be gotten to the Scribe so that the paperwork will be kept in order.

 

Do we see a problem here? Big time... but bring it on!

 

If everyone does their job correctly, there should be no one on the "organizational chart" of this "monster" that is responsible for more than 6-7 boys. There is no boy overwhelmed by the magnitude of the situation if they focus on functioning well in the small portion of the program they are responsible for. Everything is in multiples of 8. for every 8 patrols there are 3 QM's, 3 ASPL's, That way no one ever is responsible for more than they can handle.

 

Right now I face the challenge of having 2 feeder-packs for the area and two troops. One troop is and has been around 20 scouts for a very long time and no matter how many boys sign up, the active population remains at 20-25. If that be the case, I will be expected to take on 10-15 boys this year and as many as 50 next year. (counting Webelos II's in the two packs) The challenge will be to offer a BSA program of value to a lot of new boys. If we design the troop on the principles described above, at least we have a fighting chance.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

As a unit leader I would never support a Scout troop becoming that large. 30-60 is optimum size in my opinion. As the Scoutmaster you have the responsibility of knowing the needs and characteristics of every member. I just don't believe that can be accomplished in a troop that size.

 

Also in a troop of 100 plus you have a PLC that is really to large for a youth leader to lead comfortably. Just as patrol leaders do best leading a patrol of 6 to 8, so does an SPL with a PLC of 6 to 8.

 

My last reason is logistics. Troop activities for 100 people is difficult. You are greatly limited to where you can go and what you can do in activities befitting scouts where A) you can fit people in, and B) where you have time for everyone to participate.

 

Before a troop grew to that size I would help organize a Venture Crew and train an Advisor, and we would graduate older scouts to the Crew to continue working toward Eagle if that was their goal, or follow special activity interests.

 

In the unit I serve presently we have a membership ceiling we hope to reach this year of 30 Sea Scouts. Due the size of our meeting facility and the amout of program resources available, as well as safety issues, our CO feels this is the optimum membership for us.

[BrentAllen]

OK, jblake, a little scenario for you. Your super-size troop goes to camporee. The Beavers, a third-year patrol, doesn't show up at departure time. You ask the SPL where they are. He responds they decided they wanted to go on a hike instead. He tells you they presented the idea at the last PLC, had a map of the route, had departure and return times planned, had arranged transportation, had even completed the Tour Permit. The SPL and PLC saw the hike was within their capabilities, and agreed. (No need to bother the SM, who was off drinking coffee during the PLC, since getting his approval would only take the authority and power away from the boys). The buttons on your shirt are about to burst from the pride swelling in your chest, right? Third year Scouts in a patrol off doing their own thing. No help needed from the adults. No adult approval needed. Patrol-method exactly as you describe.

 

So, you finally ask, "where did they go hiking?" SPL replies, "At Six Flags. They were going to hike the entire park, and ride every ride. The other PLs liked their plan so much, most are planning on doing that instead of going on the backpacking trip we have scheduled next month."

 

So, are you ok with that, or are you suddenly a big fan of SM approval for patrol trips?

[Hunt]

I think most boys--especially if they are leaders in the troop--will not see much difference between being told to clean the stove and being led through a little Socratic dialogue designed to make them realize that the stove needs to be cleaned. They may feel that the second approach is a bit more polite, I suppose. To me, the observable difference is the extent to which the adult leader insists that things be done his way. If he is this kind of leader, everybody knows it, whatever form of words he uses to convey his directions, coaching, suggestions, questions, etc.

[Bob White]

For a Scout or anyone to be able to hear "So what's your plan for tomorrow?" and think it's the same as "go clean out the stove" is a stretch of epic proportion.

 

As a experiment tonight, I would like each of you to go to your spouse or teenage child and ask "So what is your plan for tommorrow?"

 

Then tell me how many answer that it's not their job to clean out the stove.

[acco40]

Of course if a troop get too big, we could start a Company (or Battalion or Brigade) which would be the coming together of troops. :-)

 

Here is a real-life leadership scenario! You tell me if it is boy led, adult run, good, bad or indifferent. We travelled to the west coast of Michigan for the International Kite Festival! After we dropped the trailer and the QM assigned tents/tarps, etc., I asked the SPL if we should set up our rain/dinning fly and if so where. It is fairly big, takes at least a dozen Scouts to erect, etc. He said he didn't want to put it up at all (without consulting either the ASPL or the PLs). Are you sure I (the SM) asked. I heard it was supposed to rain tomorrow and your plan has us leaving early in the morning and returning in the early evening. Yes he was sure, he thought it was way to much effort for just the possibility of rain. So, I told him what I would do. The adults and just the adults will erect an take down the fly but that if it rained, the adults and just the adults (there were about four of us) would utilize it. Sure he said, snickering. As you can guess, the next day it was raining fairly hard. The temperatures were in the low 50s. I had a private, non-judgmental talk with the SPL (giving him one more chance) explaining that if agreed to help us put it away the following morning we would gladly allow the Scouts to get under the fly. Well, stubbornly he said no. The rain doesn't bother us he said. So, that evening the Scouts got drenched and the next morning the adults put the fly away.

 

No harm, no health and safety and no real arguments. I think it was more a Scout (could you guess a teenager?) testing his independence.

[Stosh]

>> As a unit leader I would never support a Scout troop becoming that large. 30-60 is optimum size in my opinion. As the Scoutmaster you have the responsibility of knowing the needs and characteristics of every member. I just don't believe that can be accomplished in a troop that size.

 

I don't think a 100+ Troop would be any different than a 100+ Pack. The program is designed to reach out to as many boys as possible and it has a proven track record under the guidance of adults. It really hasn't had much opportunity under scouts.

 

Studies have shown that a "group" can get know everyone within it without any difficulty up to about 200 members. That means one of these super troops would be only about half that size. If a minister can get to know quite intimately 200 members of what would be considered a very small congregation, surely a SM could get to know 100 boys quite easily. As a matter of reality, he would have to get to know only 25 new boys each year. I don't see this as an overwheming hurdle to overcome. Smaller troops are easier for adults to control. If the troop gets too large and the adults have to turn over some of the control to the boys, it's a scary proposition.

 

>> Also in a troop of 100 plus you have a PLC that is really to large for a youth leader to lead comfortably. Just as patrol leaders do best leading a patrol of 6 to 8, so does an SPL with a PLC of 6 to 8.

 

An SPL would be responsible for direct interaction with his ASPL's and the supporting troop corps. The PLC would be made up of... well PL's of the 20 patrols? Sure, but SPL would have 3+ ASPL's to assist him. That breaks the process down into appropriate sizes. The PLC would have the PL's communicating with the SPL/ASPL who would work as a liason with the Troop corps of officers. Maybe the QM would sit in on the PLC's that discussed activities that required equipment, but wouldn't attend if discussions didn't involve him.

 

>> My last reason is logistics. Troop activities for 100 people is difficult. You are greatly limited to where you can go and what you can do in activities befitting scouts where A) you can fit people in, and B) where you have time for everyone to participate.

 

As it was expressed earlier, why does everyone have to do the same thing? Younger boys go to summer camp, older boys go to BWCA or Philmont, etc. There's nothing wrong with the troop taking up 2-3 campsites at camp anyway, they are all autonomous and can function separately anyway. BP indicated all patrols should separate themselves by 200' minimum anyway. 3-4 campsites at camp? That has no impact on the program of the camp, they don't care if the camp is filled with 3 troops in three sites or 1 troop in 3 sites. It's all the same to them.

 

>> Before a troop grew to that size I would help organize a Venture Crew and train an Advisor, and we would graduate older scouts to the Crew to continue working toward Eagle if that was their goal, or follow special activity interests.

 

That's an awful lot of extra work for a program that accomodates the older boys anyway. Why not have Venture Patrols and train a patrol advisor(s). Surely this is within the scope of a well organized troop. Venturing is a whole different program and has different goals and expectations. Getting Eagle is not one of them. Getting Ranger is.

 

>> In the unit I serve presently we have a membership ceiling we hope to reach this year of 30 Sea Scouts. Due the size of our meeting facility and the amout of program resources available, as well as safety issues, our CO feels this is the optimum membership for us.

 

And now you have adults making decisions over the boys dictating their membership limitations. Your council can assist you with this issue. It sounds as if the CO has a different set of goals than the council has. And how does the CO answer the boy who says he wishes to join but there's no room for him? I'm sure the council can find a CO to support 100+ troop, they do it all the time for Cub Packs!

 

I'm sure the council would immediately seek out a CO that has the facilities and vision to involve as many boys as possible in the scouting program. This is not a good example for not having a large troop.

 

Stop and listen carefully to your comments. It sounds as if you're getting all your excuses in line prior to even giving it a try. Are our visions limited and our dreams too small?

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

I think absolutely there is a difference between a 110+ troop and a 100+ pack. To begin with the type of activities they take part in are completely different.

 

Secondly Dens and Packs are completely adult lead, and patrols and troops are not. To ask an adult to lead and adult committee of 10 or 12 is not that hard a task, but for a Youth SPL to lead a committee that large is really overloading their capacity, which is why patrols are kept to 6-8 people and not 10-12. 8 patrols of 8 scouts= 64 people. Pretty much the limit for youth leadership at this age and stage of development.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

BA, I think your scenerio is a little far-fetched. If you remember I was the one who stated that I would step in and stop the NBP from going rock-climbing without adult supervision. The only thing I find a problem with in your scenerio is: I don't think 8 fourteen year-old boys could pull off this without some adults knowing about it long before the evening before. I said the SM should not be leading/deciding/directing, I didn't say he was deaf and blind.

 

It's also a council requirement that the SM signs all Tour Permits. The boys must have forged the SM signature. A little lesson on "On my honor... " and the first Scout Law might be in order too.

 

Stosh

[evmori]

Do we really need to ask th SPL "What's the plan for tomorrow?" if our unit is boy run? Shouldn't the SPL be asking us "We are breaking camp at 8 AM. Will the adults be ready to go then?"

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Yes Ed, and that is exactly what my previous fictional SPL did, but I am pretending that he had been in the office for 6 months and had more experience. For ths fictional SPL I am pretending that he has only been in office for 1-week.