Really Boy Led?

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Hi all,

 

Under a different topic (Working with Kids/Why is he here?), uz2bnowl stated:

 

"Of course in a boy led organization, he (meaning all boys in this crowd, not just OJ) could grab the bull by the horns and run the show."

 

I have to ask... How willing are most boys to "grab the bull by the horns"? Can the boys really run the show? More importantly, how many boys truly realize that they can?

 

My oldest (age 14) has decided to drop out of scouts due to lack of interest. With a change in scoutmaster last year, the troop activities started getting repititious and less interesting. Most of the older scouts that my son "buddied up" with are close enough to their eagles that they're willing to put up with the status quo until they get their eagle & either quit or do venturing.

 

From what I've seen, the rest of the scouts don't grasp the idea that they can really change things.

 

(Actually, what's worse is the number of boys that are only in scouts because their parents have tied getting their drivers license to getting their eagle. They have no real vested interest in making the troop successful.

But that's another story...)

 

All that said, do adult leaders really give the scouts the authority to run a troop and do the scouts they understand they should have the authority to run their troop?

 

Thanks

NC

 

[Eagledad]

Blessed New Year All

 

I think this is a great question.

 

My personal goal for our troop (all the adults and scouts knew this) was to develop a troop where the scouts could run the program for a full month without the adults ever showing up. We didn't get there while I was SM. While I think that vision is rare, I know of a lot of adults across the county with that same goal.

 

You can't really take the adults out of the scouting program because wisdom from life's experience is a required ingredient to fuel growth. However, you would be surprised how little adult interaction is required in a mature functioning program.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

 

[Beavah]

How willing are most boys to "grab the bull by the horns"?

 

Not very. That's a scary place to be, eh? Takes a lot of confidence and experience, and some encouragement by wise, old adults who express their trust and faith in the lad.

 

Can the boys really run the show?

 

Yep. Seen it happen many times.

 

Sometimes I think when the lads are ready, yeh have to shoot the adults. Once as a UC on a troop outing, I poisoned the SM and ASM. With their reluctant permission, of course! I took 'em out of the action and made them dependent on the boys, rather than vice-versa. Kids stepped up to fill the vacuum. It was an eye-opener for the leaders, and the boys' "best outing ever!"

 

But I did it knowin' the level of skill and confidence of those boys, eh? And it worked because the SM and ASM had been active in buildin' that.

 

More importantly, how many boys truly realize that they can?

 

None, until we let 'em try! None, unless we build their skills and confidence to proficiency, not just a quick signoff!

 

Overall, I agree with Eagledad. It's somethin' that a good troop is always workin' toward, and never quite getting to. Sometimes you gain ground, and then yeh just up the challenge and do more high adventure to keep 'em stretching. Then they all graduate and yeh have to scale back down a bit to where the next lad and the next group are at.

 

Beavah

 

[scoutingagain]

"Overall, I agree with Eagledad. It's somethin' that a good troop is always workin' toward, and never quite getting to. Sometimes you gain ground, and then yeh just up the challenge and do more high adventure to keep 'em stretching. Then they all graduate and yeh have to scale back down a bit to where the next lad and the next group are at. "

 

I agree as well, and on top of youth turnover, you have a constant supply of new parents coming in that don't understand the program. Some want to be very active and they are well intentioned, but unless they come into a troop with a very well run boy led program, they remain skeptical of the boy led concept, because they rarely see it run well. If there is adult leadership turnover, along with the youth(i.e. parents that move on when their sons do.) a unit probably never really gets there, as the adults turnover as well and the cycle starts again.

 

We've had some discussion on how long it takes to turn a unit around and some have said anywhere from 3-5 years. (well me) I would say that's with a very motivated and good adult leader that is willing to spend the time with the youth leadership to coach them along and get them to do things, a rare person. As noted, they are not likely to "grab the bull by the horns so to speak". Why should they? In every other aspect of the lives, adults run the show, and that's their expectation.

 

SA

[Eagledad]

Hi all

 

>>As noted, they are not likely to "grab the bull by the horns so to speak". Why should they? In every other aspect of the lives, adults run the show, and that's their expectation.

[Eamonn]

There is as I write this another thread running "Issues with the current SM".

I started a reply. Thinking about the Methods of Scouting, but for some reason wandered off into Team Development.

The good old:forming, storming,norming, performing stuff!!!

I didn't post it because it seemed a bit too much like an old Wood Badge Director talking!!

I've lost count of the number of times I have posted:

Train them, Trust Them, Let them lead!

 

The Methods of Scouting are a wonderful set of goals. Things that we all should aim to achieve. There are times when everything seems to fall into place and the methods do work and for a while Building Character,Fostering Citizenship and Promoting Fitness, seems to come easy.

 

We the adults do need to keep reminding ourselves that Scouting is a game.

Boys join Scouts to have fun. When it stops being fun they quit.

It is a game with a purpose, finding the right balance between the game and the purpose can at times be really hard.

Still no kid ever joined a Troop in order to meet the aims of Scouting. He joined to have fun, he wanted adventure and while maybe he didn't know it? He was looking for new challenges.

Dr Bruce Tuckman published his Forming Storming Norming Performing model in 1965.

In the forming stage it states:

"High dependence on leader for guidance and direction. Little agreement on team aims other than received from leader. Individual roles and responsibilities are unclear. Leader must be prepared to answer lots of questions about the team's purpose, objectives and external relationships. Processes are often ignored. Members test tolerance of system and leader. Leader directs.

Clearly a long way from Boy Led!!

storming - stage:

Decisions don't come easily within group. Team members vie for position as they attempt to establish themselves in relation to other team members and the leader, who might receive challenges from team members. Clarity of purpose increases but plenty of uncertainties persist. Cliques and factions form and there may be power struggles. The team needs to be focused on its goals to avoid becoming distracted by relationships and emotional issues. Compromises may be required to enable progress. Leader coaches.

Sounds like a Patrol meeting of younger Scouts!!

norming - stage:

Agreement and consensus is largely forms among team, who respond well to facilitation by leader. Roles and responsibilities are clear and accepted. Big decisions are made by group agreement. Smaller decisions may be delegated to individuals or small teams within group. Commitment and unity is strong. The team may engage in fun and social activities. The team discusses and develops its processes and working style. There is general respect for the leader and some of leadership is more shared by the team. Leader facilitates and enables.

Starting to sound like a typical PLC Meeting?

performing - stage:

Think about a well trained SPL!!

The team is more strategically aware; the team knows clearly why it is doing what it is doing. The team has a shared vision and is able to stand on its own feet with no interference or participation from the leader. There is a focus on over-achieving goals, and the team makes most of the decisions against criteria agreed with the leader. The team has a high degree of autonomy. Disagreements occur but now they are resolved within the team positively and necessary changes to processes and structure are made by the team. The team is able to work towards achieving the goal, and also to attend to relationship, style and process issues along the way. team members look after each other. The team requires delegated tasks and projects from the leader. The team does not need to be instructed or assisted. Team members might ask for assistance from the leader with personal and interpersonal development. Leader delegates and oversees.

 

The adults need to be aware that there is no "Leadership Fairy" We need to train the youth leaders.

All to often we hear about the leadership capabilities of the youth!

The role of the SM should be developing those capabilities.

Training the youth leaders to lead is the most important job of the SM.

Youth Led units, need youth leaders!!

 

Adults need to be able to step back and allow the youth leaders to do their job. This can be very hard.

Their way might not be the same way as you might do it!

It might be doomed for failure!!

It more than lightly is not going to be perfect, but there will be time for Evaluating, Reviewing and Reflecting to see what worked and what didn't!

 

Back in the old Boy Scout WB Course there was a session on representing the group.

I always thought it was kinda crafty the way it was done.

Each Patrol was asked what they wanted to prepare and cook for the Feast. The Patrol made a long list of foods that they liked and some tried to ensure that maybe they weren't going to be overworked!!

The SPL then brought all the Patrol Leaders up for a PLC Meeting (The Troop observed what was going on but were not able to participate!) He then went over the menu.

As you can imagine a lot of the Patrols had come up with items that were either the same or were very similar. He (The SPL) then went about changing the menu using the suggestions from the PL's.With some input from the SPL.

So maybe the Patrol that was doing Mashed potatoes, ended up making spaghetti and the lobster became shrimp. In fact a lot of times by the end of the session the entire menu had changed!! It was changed by the Patrol Leaders, led by the SPL.

Needless to say not everyone was happy with final menu, but everyone seen and understood how the system was supposed to work.

Youth led doesn't always mean that everyone gets what they want!!

It does mean that the youth are trusted to come up with the plan and follow it through.

In the Ship I'm happy to help and support them in doing what they want to do. However at times, I will say that I'm not going to join with them and they will need to find another adult. Or I will point out that in order to do something they need to do something else first.

The real skill needed for a youth led unit is to be able to listen!!

Eamonn.

 

 

[fastbow]

Ok, I'm new here and just got done reading this thread and this is 1 of the reason I decided to join this site. My oldest sons troop is what you call "run by the boys" kind of troop.

After sitting in on numerous troop meetings, I got really fed up with the bull that was going on. The meeting is 2 hours long and they say they have to go and play after an hour of doing troop stuff. Never did that when I was in the scouts.

The latest "fubar" I watched was this past weekend at their Klondike Derby. Heres the lay out.....theres 4 older scouts, ranging from 1st class to life and 3 scouts ( no rank ). They come to a station where they have to stake out a claim and map it with a compass and input all the degrees. I'm watching this with 2 of my webelos and couldn't under why none of the older scouts don't know how to read a compass. My 2 webelos got tired of watching these older boys mess up royaly. I asked the older scouts if any of them knew what they were doing and got told "no".

I feel that letting the boys run the troop....the SM picks who he wants to send to leadership school, none these boys should have never been sent to leadership class.

So you tell me....why should the boys be allowed to run the troop.

[Eagledad]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I will lead off by saying that there is a big difference between developing boys to lead the troop and letting boys run the troop. In one style, the adults take a very active role in making sure the scouts are learning and growing. In the other, the adults dont.

 

The other important point that also needs to brought in is scouts leading the troop is not the primary purpose of the program. The primary purpose is to develop men who make ethical decision based from the values of the Scout Law and Oath.

 

The BSA encourages scouts running the troop because when done correctly, it is a very efficient method of developing scouts toward the goal of making ethical decisions. Running a program as complicated as troop puts them in real life stressful situations, which gives them a lot of practice in making decisions based from the scout law, or not. To learn something you have to practice that thing.

 

If the adults are doing their job right, they arent being proactive with the scouts, they are being reactive to their performacne. For example: The meeting should be packed full of activities for two hours. A good Scoutmaster is going to discuss with the SPL how well the meeting went, how well they accomplish the planned goals and what could they do differently to have a better meeting next week.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[pargolf44067]

Wow, fastbow, it seems like your experience with the one troop has really tainted your view of boy led.

 

I agree with Eagledad that you cannot let the boys lead without guiding them to that point. I learned that lesson the hard way when I took over as Scoutmaster of the troop that I am in.

 

Our troop still struggles with the boy led concept, especially when we get a new SPL and ASPL. It is a matter of constant training of the boys. Not that I am any expert on this. You have to give boy led a chance, maybe by visiting another troop that does it a better way.

 

Don't expect perfect meetings, however, you should expect more than you see now.

 

Just my opinion. Don't give up yet.

 

Bill

[Stosh]

Boy led patrols and trained boy led patrols are two entirely different animals and can't be viewed the same. If one expects a boy to lead without any background and training is basically designing a program to fail.

 

This past meeting I turned my 3 trained PL's loose for the first time with 21 new Webelos boys for an orientation meeting of the patrols. They came back with scout advancement, patrol identification, icebreaker games, and instruction in the troop flag ceremony. There were no diciple problems and all 3 patrols operated in the same room with no disruption to the other patrols. I visited all night with the parents orientation and signup. I was in the same room as the patrols and didn't have any problem with my group being interrupted.

 

Had those 3 boys not been properly trained, armed with an evening agenda, and capable of working with a handful of new Webelos cross-overs, it would have been a free-for-all.

 

Those fail to have a plan, plan to fail. These boys were prepared, and did a great job. They didn't take any bull by the horns, they were trained, guided, and prepared to handle the situation they found themselves in. It worked just fine and all the boys had a great evening.

 

The only other officer in the troop is the TG who went around to each patrol, collected up names, recorded advancement, offered any assistance to the PL when asked, and basically stayed out of the way and let the PL's do their job.

 

With a TG and 3 PL's comprising the PLC, that is plenty of personnel at this point to get things up and running.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Gold Winger]

It's a big mess and permeates our society. We've become rather psycho when it comes to dealing with our teens. Parents do way too much because they don't want to see failure because failure can be "discouraging" and "after, all they're just kids and don't know what to do."

 

On the other hand, many parents say, "Oh, he's old enough to make his own decisions" and don't make rules, let alone give guidance. The result there is drunk driving, tobbacco & drug use, and pregnant teens. Of course, when something does go wrong, the cry immediately changes from "he's old enough . . ." to "he's just a kid . . ." You can't have it both ways.

 

In the Scouting world, too many parents want to rush through the basic skills to get their son to 1st Class because they have to make Eagle by 16 or they'll never do it because of girls and cars.

 

The result is a big mess. Because the parents have organized EVERYTHING in their kids' lives, the kids never learned how to do anything on their own. Playdates, organized sports, reading sessions . . . everything is a fieldtrip. Kids don't play pick up games or explore the area like they did in days gone by, at least the "good kids" don't.

 

Now we thrust them into an environment where they are "supposed to lead." An 11 year old who has never made a decision about what to do with his free time is now expected to lead. He can't so the parents step in again and run the patrol meetings and "teach" the skills but, afraid of failure (see above), they slide everyone through with the gratest of ease.

 

A few years down the road, we have a 14 year old SPL who still doesn't have a clue about leading or organization. So the Scoutmaster makes sure that things happen because if he doesn't the meetings will be disasters and the parents will be upset.

 

In another year, the boys start dropping out. Why? Because they finally want to start doing things on their own but they don't know how and they really don't want to just hang out with little kids.

 

When I was a youngster, back in the stone ages, the older kids ran the neighborhood. We didn't have football coaches and baseball coaches, the older kids taught us how to play. We learned to do bike stunts by trying to copy the older boys. If a youngster was getting out of line, one of the older guys would explain to him that his behvaior wasn't acceptable. We learned that different behavior was acceptable for different situations. For example, belching the alphabet is okay when its just a bunch of guys but if a 15 year old is talking to a girl, an 11 year old doens't walk up and belch.

 

So where is this great rambling going? Not really sure.

 

Okay . . . . here goes. Few boys want to take charge now because they've never had the example of boys being in charge of anything. Besides, it is far easier to just let the parents do it.

[fastbow]

1st I would like to say, I'm not "tainted" by this troop just dumb founded at the lack of leadership. It would be great to see some kind of leadership, but all I see is playing. It's a very small troop, right around 13 boys. They have 2 junior assistant scoutmasters, only because they are getting ready for eagle and are both turning 18 this year. They just reset all their troop positions as of feb 1st.

The only time I saw any kind of orginization was when they were wotking on their electronics merit badge, with another local troop, and still they had to stop and go play. Like I said before, I used to sit in on their meetings but got upset at how things were done.

Back when I was in scouts, things were done so much different and yes.....better. Maybe because we had 40 boys in our troop with 5 patrols. Each of us PL's knew what we had to do each and every week, only because the SM sat with use at the end of each meeting and went over the agenda for each month, and the troop scribe took notes.

Now this troop, sits down and discusses things on a sunday for the coming saturday only if something has been planned, other then that....it's a free for all. I'm wondering if anything is going to change now that they 3 fresh cross-overs, so that will give them 4 scouts working towards their tenderfoot badges. 1 of those boys should have been ready to recieve his tenderfoot this coming weekend at court of honor.....but after reviewing his book, it seems that all they have managed to work on is 1st and 2nd class requirments and none of the tenderfoot requirments.

Ok, I need to stop because I can go on and on, so I'll leave some stuff stuff to chat about another time.

[scoutingagain]

"Each of us PL's knew what we had to do each and every week, only because the SM sat with use at the end of each meeting and went over the agenda for each month, and the troop scribe took notes.

Now this troop, sits down and discusses things on a sunday for the coming saturday only if something has been planned, other then that....it's a free for all."

 

Welcome Fastbow.

 

Not to get all Bob White on you right away, but what you've described above is highly symptomatic of an adult leadership problem, not a boy led problem. The adults are there to set expecations, train and coach scouts to meet those expectations. In your old troop it sounds like that was being done.

 

In this current troop, where is the SM? How does he interact with the SPL and PLs? While he should not be running the meetings, if the meetings are a mess, undisciplined and the scouts aren't learning anything, who is giving the boy leadership Positive feedback on how make things better? Not just critizing the boy for what is going wrong.

 

SA

 

 

[Stosh]

After EVERY meeting/event, etc. I conduct an AAR (After Activity Review) with the PLC and anyone else involved in the program that wishes to do so. The boys hash out what went right, what went wrong, etc. As SM I "facilitate" the situation to cooridnate any and all participants an opportunity for input. We do not have an SPL so no one "chairs" the meeting. It's just a time to sit and evaluate the activity. Suggestions are made by all as to what might be done to make it better next time, etc. what training is needed to deal with certain situations, what goals need to be tweaked, what new goals might be beneficial, etc.

 

This AAR may take 5 minutes or 15, depending on how well or not well things went. A summary of the comments are collected up and posted on the internet page. If things didn't go well for the patrols, this is what the PL's are going to be trying during future activities. Everyone gets the heads-up message and everyone can work with the PL in making it better.

 

This type of activity allows the boys to brain-storm their own ideas on how things might be improved without any adult interjections. The boys are responsible and have the authority to problem solve their situations. If the boys are having difficulty with a situation, this activity also allows the boys to request adult suggestions/assistance but only if they decide it's necessary. Problem solving remains in the hands of the leadership of the patrols.

 

This AAR routine occurs for all events, even following the campout shopping for food event at the grocery store.

 

This process has allowed the boys to not only have the responsibility of running their patrols, but they also have the authority to do so without any interference from troop officers and adult leadership. Too often leadership breaks down when someone is given the responsibility to do a task and yet no authority to do it. A prime example of this is leadership by delegation. This occurs when adults retain the reins of the troop (adult-led) and/or the SPL retains the reins over the PL's (boy-led, troop-method).

 

Stosh

[fastbow]

This mite sound dumb, but who the heck ib Bob White??????

 

SA,

The SM is there at every meeting, he does a very brief chat with them and then patrols left alone to go over whats coming up. Most of the time the patrols little meets are more like a bunch of pre-schoolers messin around and what should be a 15 minute discusion turns into a hour of bull. Form what we've been told over and over again by the SM is "the boys run the troop" The SM picks each summer who he thinks is good for leadership camp and sends them.

 

Now I have joined the troops committe so I can have a voice in what goes on inside the troop, should my mouth stay shut until both my boys are up or open it now and rock the boat about the "non-leadership"

 

I really feel the SM doesn't like me being around, but I informed him from the begining that I'm very hands on and would very much like to help out with the troop as much as possible. I became the Webelos Den Leader, because I enjoyed the scouts and want to see my boys enjoy it like I did.