Setting rank/age requirements for SPL, others

[Eagledad]

>>I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.I am more than happy to explain how and why we I have done things in relationship to the scouting program. But you should be courteous enough to ask what it is I do, and ask what I think, rather than consistently "tell" me. Because you constantly misprepresent me, and that is a very unfair way to discuss a topic?>"As far as the topic of THIS thread goes.

Do you agree that according to the BSA program...The PLC determines the qualifications for being an SPL and that the youth elect him, and the SPL slects all other youth ledership posions at the troop level. And that the Patrol determoines the PL requirements and elects the patrol leader, then the patrol leader selects all other patrol positions.

 

And if you do agree then would you recommend to gwd-scouter to use that method?

[gwd-scouter]

--"Would the size of the troop keep you from being able to use the methods of the Scouting program. By not following the program could you negatively effect the growth of the troop?"

 

No, I don't think our small size has kept us from following the methods of program. In the course of the past few years I will admit that some methods have at times been more of our focus than others, but that was because of our efforts to change the culture of the Troop from adult-led (mandated) to boy-led.

 

--"With such a small troop, setting restrictions for offices could severely hamstring the unit program. Scouts will possibly be in the same leadership position for YEARS until other scouts become eligible let alone interested in the jobs."

 

I agree. The legacy of our Troop that I stepped into was that of age and rank restrictions for PORs, but those PORs were merely a patch on the sleeve with no real expectations for the job. Again, all activities, meetings, etc. were mandates from the SM. This was by far the most difficult culture to change in our Troop, but one in which I am pleased to see our progress. Yes, we had less success these past six months with our young PL than we had last year with our older Scout doing the job, but that is all a part of giving the boys the responsibility and consequences of their decisions.

 

--"It would seem that just because other units set restrictions that does not mean it should be a priority in the troop you serve. Do the other troops have more than one patrol?"

 

I don't think I ever said that restrictions were a priority in our Troop. I was asking the question to find out how other Troops handle PORs and about their experiences with younger Scouts in those PORs. We have various size ranges of Troops in our District. A couple that are quite large and have several patrols. Only judging by watching them at camporees and talking to the leaders at roundtable, I would say that neither of the large troops implements the patrol method in a way that you and others on this forum would find ideal. We have quite a few small troops that have nothing close to a patrol method - mostly the adults running the show.

[Bob White]

Eagle Dad writes >>I'm not being defensive but I am tired of being misrepresented.

[Eagledad]

>>I still cannot tell if you support that process or not. Your troop has unwritten guidlines, which pretty much means you have none. The BSA has written guidelines that are inter-related with other elements of the program. Which do you suggest for gwd to do?

[Bob White]

Hi gwd scouter

My point is that what units with more than one Patrol do as far as setting requirements is not relevant to your situation as you do not have a PLC, or an SPL really.

 

It's not about using the method "ideally". It is about using it effectively.

 

My recommendation would be to look at the program methods and not at the unit size, and see how you can follow the program as effectively as possible.

 

Consider these adjustments.

 

Have the scouts elect an SPL, then have them divide themselves into two patrols and elect patrol leaders.

 

Once they have organized into two patrols the SPL and the patrol leaders can meet as the PLC and start learning how to lead the troop, and if they choose to they can set requirements for the NEXT SPL election.

 

Then with the help of the troop committtee make a strong recruiting effort to bring in at least 3 or 4 more scouts before the winter, and then some new scouts in the February cross over. Within a very short time (less than a year from now) you can have three Patrols in the Troop, with three patrol leaders, a Troop Guide, an SPL, and a 5 person PLC to lead the troop.

 

Or, as EagleDad has suggested you can keep doing what you have been doing. Just remember that if you keep doing as you have always done then you will keep getting what you have always gotten, and your leadership situation will never change.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Just to fix a quick misconception, in da official BSA literature, the "troop" sets the age, rank, and other qualification standards for PL and SPL. Lots of ways of doin' that, but most common is the Scoutmaster settin' 'em, not the PLC.

 

When I work with troops, I spend a lot of time listenin' and observin' first. I'd never recommend something, and certainly never quote literature at 'em (whether helpful or gobbledygook), until I had a real good sense of where they were at and where they wanted to go. Internet forums are tough in that way, because I can't see before I give advice or share a thought, eh?

 

From my perspective, the outcomes gwd describes were what I expected when da thread began, eh? An immature 13-year-old who is pushed into leadership by a parent's ego need is gonna get upset and frustrated. No BSA literature is gonna solve that problem. Yeh either prevent the possibility by creatin' an age-based program where adults and older boys really run things for NSPs and mid-level patrols (preventing the frustration), or yeh build a mixed age program where kids understand da challenges of leadership and mature lads aspire to it. Along the way, you're naturally gonna have kids who do what this 13-year-old did, eh? That becomes a powerful lesson to everyone about electing a kid based on bribes, or assuming responsibility that way. It's part of da process of a unit growing and becomin' stronger.

 

So gwd, I think yeh did fine. You get bonus points for keepin' the 13-year-old from droppin'. Now yeh need to find a spot as a first-tier follower for him to succeed at, eh? And help the group move back toward leadership being a call to service for your older, stronger lads. What yeh don't want is to repeat the struggle a few times without adjusting and learning.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Surely you understand the program elements of the BSA's Boy Scout Program, The "Troop" is a gathering of Patrols, not "the Scoutmaster". Patrols are boy led, the troop is led by the SPL and the PLC. The primary role of the scoutmaster is to teach and develop the youth leadership.

 

The fundamental concept of the Patrol Method and the Leadership Development Method is that the adult does not do anything that a scout can do himself.

 

Do you feel the scouts are unable to make a decision on the requirements they want for the SPL?

 

This is VERY basic stuff when it comes to the Boy Scout program and the Patrol Method

 

"Yeh either prevent the possibility by creatin' an age-based program where adults and older boys really run things for NSPs and mid-level patrols (preventing the frustration), or yeh build a mixed age program where kids understand da challenges of leadership and mature lads aspire to it.

 

You fail to acknowledge that gwd HAS a mixed age program and still it did not work. And they HAD an older scout to observe in the role and that did not work either.

 

You also did not mention a third choice, follow the Boy Scout program Methods to coach and mentor the scout.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Yah, easy there, BW. The "troop" in the BSA program literature is a lot of different things, eh? Sometimes it refers to a gatherin' of patrols (though that's actually a quote from those old Scouting materials yeh dis on so often. ). Sometimes it refers to a youth program owned and operated by a CO through a Troop Committee. In my experience, it's most common for requirements for PL and SPL positions to be set thinkin' of da troop in the second way, eh? As adults guidin' youth development. I'm not advocatin' one way or another, particularly, only commentin' on what I've seen in programs that have been successful.

 

I think if yeh read gwd's postings carefully and fully over time, you'll find that her program has experienced a remarkably positive turnaround over a couple of years, and is really doin' fine things. I think the evidence suggests what she's doing is working very well. She got confronted by somethin' that all good SM's hit at some point durin' the transition to youth run - that kids just don't "get" elections. For many lads, Scoutin' is the first time they've ever voted in an election that actually mattered in any way. Workin' through that, balancing adult coachin' and lettin' kids feel the consequences of their choices, is what a good SM does, eh? Close as I can tell, gwd is doin' that just fine.

 

Yah, I don't quite get your bold bit, eh? In a small troop, she is following the Boy Scout Program methods and mentoring the scouts. She conducted elections by the book, and is dealin' with the results. What we're tryin' to offer is ways of thinkin' about the Scoutin' methods that would be helpful in the specific circumstances she's confrontin'. Just like any good commish, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

yeh, here be da problem Beavah.

 

If everything was good with gwd she wouldn't be askin for help now eh?

 

She had a mixed patrol and she had a good junior leader settin da example...(just like you said she should) and she did not get the result she was expecting so she asked for help.

 

"keep doin what your'e doin" is not advice that will bring about any change will it now?

 

Organizin' da troop into more than one patrol,

Havin a workin SPL and PLC

Usin' the PLC to make decisions like on requirements for the SPL

Coach'n and Mentor'n da junior leaders to be able to do these things

Startin the learning and practicin sooner..

 

These are all actual elements of the BSA program and you didn't suggest or support any of them.

 

And all of them would provide the unit with a more youth lead program.

 

"keep doin what your doin" does not solve existin problems don'tcha know."

 

(brief pause while I adjust my accent)

 

To get changes you have to make changes. Using more of the elements of the patrol method seems to work for a lot of troops isn't there a good chance that they would work for her?

 

Good Commissioners know and support the methods of the BSA Scouting program. They know and share the best practices, Methods, and policies of the BSA, and they give actual measuarable steps that a person can follow to solve a problem.

 

Sorry Beavah, but hen it comes to problem solving "keep doin what you're doin" is not anything like actual commissioning.

 

 

[Beavah]

Nah, BW, yeh have to move at least a few hundred miles further north and work on dat accent a bit, eh?

 

To my mind, nuthin' you proposed actually responded to gwd's need. When someone asks for help, I don't reckon they're usually lookin' for someone to come along and say "No, no, you're doin' it all wrong, just give up what you're doin' and follow my recipe (even though I don't know what ingredients you're workin' with!).

 

Takin' a small troop and splittin' it into two patrols too small to stay intact on an average campout isn't an answer to a lad who "buys" an election.

 

In fact, I'm pretty sure in da BSA literature yeh won't find a single word about what to do if a lad "buys" an election. Not even a single word about how to conduct an election.

 

The real question as a commish is not whether we can quote materials, eh? It's whether we can succeed in helpin' people. Here we can ask gwd-scouter what suggestions she found most helpful.

 

I always tried to do that as a council commish too, eh? Ask the unit scouters how helpful their commish had been. Ones that weren't, we replaced.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Again with makin up the contents of other people's posts. You make it very difficult to have a clear conversation when you post things implying that others said things they never did.

 

I never said she was doin it all wrong, I said the BSA program had a way to do it differently that would use more elements of the Patrol Method. And I offered her specifc steps to get there. It was not my solution it is the BSA's solution and it works really well for units that use it.

 

She has your solution and she has mine and she is free to choose or changeher mind later. That does not give you the right to continuley misrepresent what I or others have posted.

 

She was using the methods you told her to continue using when she had the problem, so there is no logical way that continuing to use those methods will resolve it or keep it from happening again.

 

Since she will have to do something different to get a different result, then why not help here use more elements of the Patrol Method and Leadership Development Method since that is where the problem is?

 

Certainly to be effective in the role of the commissioner you have to know the program and its resources pretty well if you are going to be able to share them with others. Of course if you are just going to say 'keep doin what you are doin', then you wouldn't have to worry about knowing any of it.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Yeh know, nowhere did I say "keep doing what you're doing."

 

But I've let yeh make that characterization because I took a few moments to try to understand what you meant by it. You are trying to express that you think her problem with this one SPL requires more drastic action than just keepin' a hand on it and mentoring the lads through the situation as a learning experience (which if yeh go back is what I proposed, along with some tips for how to coach the election process when dealin' with kids who aren't used to elections that mean something). You think that restructuring her troop into two age-stratified patrols would be better, and by comparison, my notion is "keep doing what you're doing."

 

I get that. So by takin' just a minute to try to understand your point of view, I was able to avoid accusin' you of fabrication and misrepresentation and all that, eh? I don't agree with your viewpoint, I think you haven't been listenin' to gwd closely enough or long enough. But I'm not gonna berate you in public for your representation of your personal view of da meaning of my approach.

 

Yeh might try that approach sometime. Do unto others, eh?

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Beavah

When asked what specifically she could change you and EagleDad both encourgaed her to just continue as she is doing.

 

Now lets look at this .."You think that restructuring her troop into two age-stratified patrols would be better, and by comparison, my notion is "keep doing what you're doing."

 

Show me where in any post to gwd I said "age stratified patrols". I never did. I never even suggested it. I said let the scouts organize themselves into two patrols.

 

I do think if left to the scouts to select their patrols most would be similar in age and interests. It seems adult leaders when deciding who should be in patrols that tend to mix the ages. When I chose my friends as a boy they tended to be about my age and did things I liked to do. Adults tend to try and make patrols "look even", and that is not what patrols are about.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagledad]

>>do think if left to the scouts to select their patrols most would be similar in age and interests. It seems adult leaders when deciding who should be in patrols that tend to mix the ages. When I chose my friends as a boy they tended to be about my age and did things I liked to do. Adults tend to try and make patrols "look even", and that is not what patrols are about.

[gwd-scouter]

Good day all. I appreciate the comments and I've enjoyed reading them, although at times they've been a bit confusing. I don't think I've ever posted anything that prompted so much debate.

 

It is difficult for me, at times, in my postings to paint a really clear picture of what goes on in our Troop. This thread for instance caused confusion because I referred to our SPL when, in fact, we are a small Troop operating as one patrol, so his title really should be PL.

 

I don't know if this will help alleviate the spirited debate that's going on, but the Scout we've had these past six months as PL was indeed a poor choice made by the boys. He and another younger Scout in our Troop announcing they wanted to run for PL was what prompted my initial post. I knew if either of them was elected, it would be difficult for them. But, we have worked very hard to become boy-led and I couldn't step in an make a command decision about their elections. They would just have to learn from and live with the consequences of a poor choice - which is exactly what we've done for the past six months.

 

Last year was a marvelous year and a point at which I thought we had arrived at what we had worked so hard toward. In my original post I wrote: "The current SPL and the two 14-year-olds are the Scouts that I give full credit to for the successes our troop has had this past year and for raising the expectation of boy leadership. This past year they alone have been our PLC, planning and carrying out our meetings and outings."

 

So, with apologies again for using the wrong terminology, I do think we've been using the methods effectively for our unit size. Last year the boys elected a PL who was terrific. This year they didn't.

 

BobWhite: I am interested in your post about letting the Scouts separate into two patrols, even with only 10 guys in our Troop. That is, in fact, something they did about two months ago. Both mixed age, each with five Scouts. The fellow I've been referring to as SPL is the PL for the "no name" patrol. The other younger Scout that ran for "SPL" is the PL for the "lightening" patrol. They came up with patrol names, yells and flags.

 

This division was prompted mostly because they wanted fair teams for the weekly end of meeting ultimate frisbee. What I've been noticing though is a real bonding and patrol spirit in the lightening patrol. Not quite so much with the no-names, but that, I think, is due in large part to the lack of enthusiasm and spirit in their PL (the SPL I've been referring to in this thread).

 

This fall/winter we are expecting four Webelos Scouts to cross over to our Troop. They went camping with us last May and had a wonderful time. So with four more Scouts we look forward to enhancing the use of the patrol method in our Troop.

 

Because of our size, we take quite a hit in the summer months - we have two guys working all summer at Scout Camp, one guy spending the summer in Texas with his father, another going on a month long mission trip with his church. We go to summer camp in two weeks. After that, the guys pretty much have games and fun each week for whomever shows up. They do have a spelunking trip planned for July, then a pool party and campout in early August. End of August when school is back in session and all our Scouts are back, we hold our annual planning weekend. The Scouts also want to hold elections then for a new PL (or PLs if they decide they want to continue with their two small patrols).

 

I believe they have learned from the past six months that their choice of PL can make a big difference. This time perhaps, they will choose more wisely.