Setting rank/age requirements for SPL, others

[Eagledad]

>>It never ceases to amaze me that just when I begin to despair over something happening in our Troop, something comes along to revive my spirits.

[Stosh]

"Every strong boy run troop goes through these same phase. That is why most experienced leaders who have mature boy run programs will tell you it takes about five years to get to a place where the boys truly take over. They have to come a place where the exceptional departs from the average. That happened here because you showed in true color what you have been saying. NOW, the troop knows your expectations. You are dead serious about this scouting stuff and popularity contest doesnt fit in your program. But it has to seen and felt. It had to hurt and make a scar. We all grow stronger through these struggles and you just pushed the troop forward a long ways."

 

And how is this really a boy-led program when it is nothing more than the boys learning what it takes to follow the SM's directives?

 

Stosh

 

[Eagledad]

>>And how is this really a boy-led program when it is nothing more than the boys learning what it takes to follow the SM's directives?

[Bob White]

"Every strong boy run troop goes through these same phase. That is why most experienced leaders who have mature boy run programs will tell you it takes about five years to get to a place where the boys truly take over."

 

My experiences do not support that view. I have seen and experienced a number of troop programs that went from adult run or chaos where no one lead, into a boy run troop and using the Patrol Method in about 18 months.

 

Its not that hard to get the scouts to take leadership it's just a meater of not making ANY decision for them and asking them what they plann to do next rather than telling them what to do next.

 

As for jblakes comments of "the scouts are just learning what it takes to folow the Scoutmasters directives." I don't see it that way at all. It would seem to me that the BSA helps the Scoutmaster form a vision of delivering scouting to youth. The Scoutmaster through coaching ang mentoring helps the Junior leaders to see leadershiop methods of the BSA, and the Leadership helps the scouts to see the benefits and use of the BSA program to have fun and learn at the same time.

 

So the scouts aren't really doing what the Scoutmaster is directing them to do, they are sharing in the vision of scouting from the boys on down to the national Council.

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>My experiences do not support that view. I have seen and experienced a number of troop programs that went from adult run or chaos where no one lead, into a boy run troop and using the Patrol Method in about 18 months.

[Stosh]

5 years? 18 months? I walked into a floundering troop of 6 boys, announced they were now boy-led, patrol-method and what were THEY going to do about it. After about 4 meetings, and a campout, THEY had it figured out. The unit now has 3 patrols, 23 members doing just fine with a SM that involves himself most often as the means by which other adults are blocked from interfering with the operation of the patrols. I have never issued a directive, I have never suggested anything, but I do answer questions the boys pose to me when they need/ask for help. I guess the closest thing to a mandate I did was when I first announced that the boys would be boy-led, patrol-method.

 

I can't seem to get my mind around all the hassle everyone else seems to impose on themselves for getting a boy-led, patrol-method program operational. I don't see it as big of a deal as everyone seems to make it out to be.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

I think you have formed a very erroneous view of things. I have never ever written anything that supported teaching skills by lecturing...EVER.

 

Yes, it is true we have different approaches, and evidently a far different rate of effectiveness in our aproaches. On average mosts boy stay in the program less than 5 years. If it takes 5 years to get to the a solid patrol program working then your scouts are NEVER going to see it happen.

 

For one thing I do not see where the BSA program supports "waiting for the scout to be ready to lead". They have 7.5 years to learn and practice leadership skills and the sooner they start the more they will learn. We start teaching leadership skills when they come to their first meeting. They don't realize that is what is happening, but that doesn't stop them from starting the trek.

 

Rather than try to make scouts "stressed" we make them curious. Both gets them to a point where they WANT to learn the skill, I just prefer to engage their natural curiosity rather than test their stress level.

 

In relation to the topic of the thread, I always understood that the PLC could set the age and skill requirements (or not) for the SPL, and the Patrol could set the age and skill requirements for Patrol leader. After that the program and all of its training and resources say that the PL selects all other patrol positions, and the SPL selects all the other youth troop positions.

 

So that is what I always followed, and that is what I have always taught. The only exception the BSA makes is for JASM, and that required my approval as the SM. I do not recall ever having to say no to an SPL's choice.

 

So you tell me EagleDad...What part of any of that is contrary to the BSA program?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

jblake

I think eagledad and I were refering to having a perfoming level patrols, not just the stucture in place. And I agree it can happen faster than 18 months, I just don't think it takes any longer than that. In many of the cases I was referring to what took the most time was retraining the adult leaders, the kids fall into the ptrol method almost immediately because it addresses characteristics that are natural to the charatcter of kids.

 

But the Patrol method ids not a natural way for adults to think or relate to young people and it takes loger for them to adapt.

 

Why by Eagleda's experience it takes so much longer than ours I do not know.

[Stosh]

Exactly, that's why I said my job was to keep other adults from interfering. At my last campout, the adults all sat around MY fire where I could sit and watch the patrols from a distance and the adults up close and I taught all the adults how to tie Turk's Head knots. After that they got instruction on how to bake in a Dutch oven, how to sew on patches and anything else I could think of to keep them occupied enough to leave the boys alone. It worked really nice.

 

As a matter of fact, the process has worked so well that a parent of a new boy called me up a week before the campout and said she appreciated all the information the PL had provided and her boy was very excited about going and was already packed (a week early) and she was just wondering if there were going to be any adults going along! I assured her that there would be two adults on-site at all times to make sure things were safe. I knew I was on the right track if parents have to ask that question.

 

If the program is being run so much by the boys that parents have to ask if adults are going to be around, one knows they have achieved the proper balance.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

Not to burst the bubble, but since this was a parent of a NEW scout... isn't it possible that she did not know if adults went camping with the scouts or not?

 

I mean if I had not been in scouting and had my 10 year old son say he was going camping with some scouts I would have asked the same question, and it would have nothing to do with the patrol method, or the youth leadership etc.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>For one thing I do not see where the BSA program supports "waiting for the scout to be ready to lead". They have 7.5 years to learn and practice leadership skills and the sooner they start the more they will learn. We start teaching leadership skills when they come to their first meeting. They don't realize that is what is happening, but that doesn't stop them from starting the trek.

[Bob White]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

 

"I dont think a first year experience as a patrol leader in a patrol of same age scouts encourages positive growth in a boy."

 

Then help me out. Does that mean you think a first year scout as a patrol leader in a mixed aged patrol is better experience?

 

I am glad you agree that the scout should learn from a more mature Scout. The BSA agrees and so when we follow the BSA program we team the Patrol Leader of the New Scout Patrol with a Troop Guide who helps the new scout learn what a ptrol leader does and how a patrol works and how the PLC operates.

 

Think of it as the new scout getting to lead using leadership training wheels rather that having to stand around and watch somebody else ride the bike on their own.

 

Certainly you must agree that learning by doing is more effective than by just watching, and that being introduced to a new skill with an experienced person working with you is less stressful than being thrown into it on your own after watching from a distance?

 

You give me too much credit for these being "my methods". Using the Troop Guide in this manner is not my method it's the BSA's. So how is the BSA's way of scouts learning from by doing with an older youth leader not a good program element?

 

And how is it related to lecturing the scout?

 

"Any responsibility is stressful"

 

I disagree, it is only stressfull if you are not prepared for it. What exactly do you think a scout sees as fun about stress?

 

I'm not being defensive but I am tired of being misrepresented.

 

I am more than happy to explain how and why we I have done things in relationship to the scouting program. But you should be courteous enough to ask what it is I do, and ask what I think, rather than consistently "tell" me. Because you constantly misprepresent me, and that is a very unfair way to discuss a topic?

 

"As far as the topic of THIS thread goes.

Do you agree that according to the BSA program...The PLC determines the qualifications for being an SPL and that the youth elect him, and the SPL slects all other youth ledership posions at the troop level. And that the Patrol determoines the PL requirements and elects the patrol leader, then the patrol leader selects all other patrol positions.

 

And if you do agree then would you recommend to gwd-scouter to use that method?

 

[Bob White]

gwd-scouter, could you explain something to me? You wrote "He told them if he was elected he wouldn't make them do anything and we would make all the older Scouts do everything."

 

What exactly do the scouts in that troop think the role of an SPL is, and where did that get that idea from?

 

How does an SPL "make" anyone do somthing? and What sort of things in that troop does he make them do?

[gwd-scouter]

BobWhite asks: "What exactly do the scouts in that troop think the role of an SPL is, and where did that get that idea from? How does an SPL "make" anyone do somthing? and What sort of things in that troop does he make them do?"

 

Since our troop is very small we have been operating with only one patrol. In reality, what I have been referring to as SPL is really a PL, but the guys like the title SPL so that is what they call it.

 

I can't read the boy's mind, but I imagine "make them do" refers to tasks on a campout duty roster. He has always been the kind of guy that finds a way to get out of work and was quite a challenge for former PL. So, since he wasn't the type to ever just pitch in and help and always had to be asked/told to do something, I figure he thought he was being bossed around and when it was his turn he'd do the same.

 

I don't see this kind of attitude among the other Scouts in our Troop, so I don't think it is any kind of atmosphere or attitude we are fostering, just the personality of this Scout at this time.

 

"As far as the topic of THIS thread goes...Do you agree that according to the BSA program...The PLC determines the qualifications for being an SPL and that the youth elect him, and the SPL slects all other youth ledership posions at the troop level. And that the Patrol determoines the PL requirements and elects the patrol leader, then the patrol leader selects all other patrol positions.

 

And if you do agree then would you recommend to gwd-scouter to use that method?"

 

I suppose you could find something I posted somewhere and argue that our Troop does not use that method, but I would disagree. My wording wasn't clear because I use the term SPL rather than PL which more clearly reflects the composition of our small one-patrol Troop. The purpose of my original post was to ask other members of the forum about the practice of setting age and/or rank requirements for PORs because, at least in my District, all the Troops set some sort of minimum standard.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

gwd, somethngs to consider.

Would the size of the troop keep you from being able to use the methods of the Scouting program. By not following the program could you negatively effect the growth of the troop?

 

You are correct that with only one patrol the lead scout s a patrol leadewr and not a senior patrol leader. An SPL leads the Patrol Leders Council and you do not have one. The PLC determines the age abd rank requiremnents for troop offices and you do do have a PLC.

 

With such a small troop, setting restrictions for offices could severely hamstring the unit program. Scouts will possibly be in the same leadership position for YEARS until other scouts become eligible let alone interested in the jobs.

 

It would seem that just because other units set restrictions that does not mean it should be a priority in the troop you serve. Do the other troops have more than one patrol?